Ep. 1 - Kaela Singleton transcript
[JINGLE: What, who, why, when, where? This is PhinDing Answers.
Music: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]
PETER: Hello answer seekers!
OLAYA: Hello answer seekers!
PETER: I think we nailed that. Yes, thank you for chiming in or tuning in, I’‘m not sure which one it should be, into our first episode of this mini-series. We have been working on this content for almost a year now, though, in a pandemic that’s like a second, as well as like a century at the same time, because what is time?
OLAYA: A construct. It doesn’t exist.
PETER: Exactly. So Olaya, why don’t you tell us who we have the privilege, the honor of speaking with in today’s episode?
OLAYA: So we’re starting the series with none less than Kaela Singleton who’s a postdoc at Emory University and is our academia-focused current postoc guest, even though we will explore or whether that is actually all there is to it. This is my second collaboration with Kaela and I hope it won’t be the last because I am a fan. [PETER: She’s amazing]. And you will be too. Let’s hear her bio in her own words.
KAELA: So I am Dr. Kaela Singleton. I’m a Black queer multiracial woman and developmental neuroscientist. And I’m doing my postdoc at Emory University and I study rare neurodevelopmental disorders.
PETER: I am so excited for this conversation. She is phenomenal. She’s wonderful. She’s amazing. She’s everything I want to be. Now, quick disclaimer, please remember that this conversation was recorded in 2021, I think maybe in October. So should you hear some dates and think, wait a second, that doesn’t add up to today. That’s cuz it doesn’t. It was recorded in the past and that’s how it is, but Kaela is fabulous and we are so happy we get to speak with her. Also quick audio note, I fucked up our recording of this conversation. I almost made us do it all over again. but I listened to it and I was like, this is such a good conversation. So organic. Yeah. that we made the audio work.
OLAYA: It’s fine. It’s fine.
PETER: So I apologize for any audio quality issues you may hear, but I promise you the content is phenomenal and I hope you enjoy.
[MUSIC]
OLAYA: Okay. So let’s get started with what is a postdoc?
KAELA: Yeah, this actually, I got this question and I had to think about it and like, look it up, cuz I had never thought about it before, but essentially to me a postdoc is like a transition period after you get your PhD and before you become like a PI or a principal investigator, where you get a shot at like being a mini PI. You’re like learning your own research niche, you’re learning about your mentoring style, maybe your teaching and doing service, but it’s like baby PIdom to me is what a postdoc is.
PETER: So what’s interesting about what you just said to me is I didn’t hear you use the word training, which is like what they’re always telling us a postdoc is.
KAELA: Yeah, I guess to me it’s, I guess to me it’s implied that it’s training, but I also, I feel like my postoc is very different than a lot of other people’s postoc experiences cuz I went into it with a lot of like intention of like, these are the things that I want to do. And I just needed someone to like guide me to make sure I wasn’t like messing it up too bad, but it, for me, a lot of it has been having my own ownership and autonomy about my research and my teaching style and my mentorship and like where I put my time. But I think that’s something I’m learning not everybody does or experiences in their postdoc.
OLAYA: Yeah. I was just, I was just gonna interject with that, that I really love that you said intention and that one of the main goals of this podcast is getting people in the mindset of being very intentional about their postdoc, what they’re gonna do, how they’re gonna go about it. And if they find themselves in a place where they landed with no intention, maybe reframe the situation and try to change track. So I, I love that. Yeah. And I really also like that you mentioned teaching cuz that’s not something that a lot of people get to do. So it’s important to bring it as part of the possibilities that a postdoc offers besides doing research.
PETER: And mentorship is huge, which I think a lot of people don’t realize, but like if you wanna be a good PI, you have to learn that mentorship aspect.
OLAYA: Yeah, t’s kind of like a two-way street in, in the mentorship arena cuz you are being mentored and as you are being mentored, you’re also learning how to mentor other people.
KAELA: And I guess when we describe that all like this, like we just did, that’s a lot to try and accomplish and like
OLAYA: In what, like three years?
PETER: And… Go.
KAELA: Yeah.
OLAYA: So when did you start your postdoc?
KAELA: So I started my postdoc in July, 2020, so right in the middle of the pandemic.
OLAYA: Wow. Exciting.
KAELA: Yeah. So I defended my PhD in May. I took a month off to move from DC to Atlanta and I started my postdoc the first week of July.
PETER: Nice.
OLAYA: Okay. So you started in 2020, the height of the pandemic. [KAELA: Yes] Has your concept of a postdoc changed in that year?
KAELA: So the concept of my postdoc has not changed, but my perception of other people and what they are looking to get out of a postdoc has changed and I’ve learned to appreciate that more. So like we were talking about earlier, the idea of being intentional and like having training. I do a lot of extra things in my postdoc. Like I teach and I mentor and I do a lot of service work and I wasn’t aware like really until like halfway through my postdoc that I was doing a lot of things that postdocs did not do. And so it has been a perspective shift for me to like see myself in the eyes of like juggling a lot of things. And I think it’s reflective of the experience I wanted as a postdoc, like having that little mini PIdom feel about what I do, but what I’m also learning is that I think in order for me to be a successful PI and a good mentor, I do need the experience of what it’s like to just be doing the research and not be doing all of these other things so that I can relate to those people on that level when the time comes.
PETER: That makes sense. I’m curious, did your perception of a postdoc change from starting grad school to now?
KAELA: Yes. I think it definitely changed. And one of the main reasons it changed, cuz I feel like everyone in grad school always tells you like being a postdoc is so different than being a graduate student. And I never believed them and now I am a postdoc and I’m like, you’re absolutely right. This is very different, but it’s hard to like put into to words what makes it so different without having to like have a lot of autonomy and ownership. Like I can’t concretely be like, these are the ways in which my life is different from grad school to now, but now as a postdoc, I very much am like, wow, this is, this is not what I thought it was. It’s like better and worse in some ways.
OLAYA: In good and bad ways?
KAELA: Yes, in good and bad ways. But it is interesting to like be reflective in that way.
PETER: Mm-hmm I think you’ve also, I segued nicely into our next question of what does a postdoc do? So you expressed that your current experience is: one, not what you thought be in grad school, two, not what you thought be starting your position because you’re doing a lot of extra. So then I guess the question for you is what does a postdoc do?
KAELA: Yeah, so I as a postdoc, I do research at Emory in the Cell Biology Department, I teach at Agnes Scott college, which is my Alma mater, and so I teach anywhere from two to three classes a semester, and then I also am like a co-founder and president elect in Black in Neuro. And so I manage that group, and we’re working on becoming a non-profit. And then on top of that, I also am just like a person, that exists in the world.
PETER: Yes, yes, you are. All of those things are true.
OLAYA: Do you wanna speak a little bit about Black in Neuro?
KAELA: Yeah, I definitely can. I think Black in Neuro started really as a Twitter or social media movement and it’s grown now to be like a full-fledged, like trainee-driven organization. And we’re working on becoming a non-profit, which has been really stressful. I didn’t realize how like important lawyers were. Just like in general didn’t know, but a lot of the work that we’ve done is everything from like having Black in our Week where we highlight different scholars, having workshops and seminars for trainees and early career scientists, and also like hosting conferences so people can share their research and things like that. And so it’s been like so much fun and so validating, but also like a lot of work as well.
OLAYA: Yeah. But I mean, you really seem to enjoy it.
KAELA: I love it very much. I would not regret it.
OLAYA: So, and I think it is really important to have something outside of the lab that you deeply care about, that will kind of like push every one forward. Cause sometimes the postdoc is a little selfish. Like you are doing a lot of stuff for yourself and your future career (maybe), but yeah. So I really like, I was involved in the postoc association in my institution and I had a similar thought as you were saying that, oh wait, not everyone does all these things?. Why? So do you think doing something outside of research is also part of what you quote unquote should be doing as a postdoc, in whatever form that is for you?
KAELA: I think, I guess it really just depends on like what your career goals are and what your goal for like your postdoc is. Right. For me, my postdoc was about getting academia, like one last chance under the best possibilities or circumstances possible. And to do that, I was like, I wanna know on some level what it’s like to be a PI that balances all of these things, right. That has to do research and write grants and teach and do service. And I think like you were saying, it also is really valuable to have something that you wanna put your all into. That’s not just science, right? Like I love pipetting clear liquids into clear liquids. It brings me the most joy, but it also, it’s not as validating as like talking to students and mentoring them. It’s not as validating as helping students figure out if they wanna go to graduate school or what else they can do. And it’s just a really, for me, the extra activities that I do are ways that I reassure myself that like I’m building a community and I’m changing the community that I’m a part of. And I’m doing that now. And I wanna continue to do that in like if I get an academic job or something like that
OLAYA: When?
KAELA: Yeah.
OLAYA: 2024. I saw it on your website.
KAELA: Yes, it does say that. I remember typing that and I was so nervous. I was like, this is, this is I don’t, I don’t wanna jinx it.
OLAYA: It’s good to have a deadline. [KAELA: Yeah]. A lot of people just push through science with deadlines. So… I don’t blame you. Do you actually have free time?
KAELA: The thing that always gets with this question is like I have free time. I don’t, I nothing in my free time, like if I have free time, I’m watching reality television or cooking shows college football or shopping. Like I’m not a very exciting, I don’t, I’m not like a hiker. I’m not a super exciting person.
PETER: I think that all sounds fantastic. And relaxing and everything you need after a long day being a postdoc.
OLAYA: Yeah. I’m glad that free time is actually just being a couch potato.
PETER: Yes , all right. Well, let’s dive into who is a postdoc? So you gave us that beautiful intro. If you want, maybe give us that intro again and add more if you want.
KAELA: Yeah. I’m Dr. Kaela Singleton. I’m a Black Samoan queer woman. I’m a developmental neuroscientist. My pronouns are she/her. I was born in Texas and raised in Grayson, Georgia. And so I’m a big fan of the South. I got my PhD from Georgetown University before I returned to the South in the hot summers [OLAYA: <laugh>] to work at Emory university.
PETER: Nice. And what is it about Emory that drew you in to do a postdoc?
KAELA: It was really my mentor, my current mentor, Dr. Victor Faundez. When I was, I think we might get into this later, but when I was looking for postdocs, I was really more interested in like the mentorship and the PI that I would be working for than the science. I was pretty confident I can get excited about almost any kind of science. So I wasn’t really super focused on like the lab or the research that was going on, but I wanted to have a PI that I could like really talk to, about like the struggles that I was facing as a graduate student, but also my worries about academia. And on my interviews, Victor was really the person that like reached out the most and was the most understanding and not, he like never invalidated my feelings and always talked about ways that we could improve that if I joined the lab. And so I was like, I’m definitely gonna go work for that guy.
PETER: Mmm I agree.
OLAYA: That’s great. And I think that that’s one of the like big take home message right there. Is the group and the PI where you do your postoc are like 90% of the probability of success.
KAELA: Yeah, no, I agree.
OLAYA: So how does your identity shape your experience as a postdoc? Do you feel that the way you identify affects how you conduct yourself both inside and outside of the lab?
KAELA: I’m not always sure if I’m being completely honest. One of the things that I love so much about the lab that I work in and about being back in Atlanta, where my family is, is that everyone is really supportive of me. So like, I don’t really believe in the concept of professionalism outside of it being like a tool for like whiteness.
PETER: Oh my God, you cannot see me snapping right now, but I…
OLAYA: <laugh>
KAELA: And so it was really important to me to have a lab that I could work in and be myself and just not have to worry about, like, if someone’s gonna comment on my hair or my clothes or things like that. And so I feel like my identity has shaped my experience, but because I am in such a great environment, it has been in a very positive way, but it has allowed me to like, hear stories that other people like specifically, like non-binary, people and women who are doing postdocs, like hear their stories and be so much more infuriated because I think about how happy I am and how successful I am in my postdoc. And so much of that is because my identity is like fully embraced in the environment that I work in every day. And I think people forget like the mental toll that having to like constantly police your own actions and change your personality and like that code switching, how big of a toll that takes on you, especially for a job, like your postdoc, where it’s like, you’re supposed to be devoting all of your time to this. And I think that that science asks that of us all the time, right. Where it’s like, if you’re not eating, sleeping and breathing science, then you must not really like it. And you’re like, or it’s just a job and I am a person.
PETER: Mm. I love that. And I also think there’s an incorrect mentality in whatever the professional world is that when you walk through your, the door of your work, you leave the rest of you behind and you can pick it up on your way out after the end of the work day. And I call just bullshit on that because…
KAELA: No, I agree completely. It’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I’m like, what do you mean?
PETER: Mm-hmm
KAELA: Sometimes I take my sad girl vibes in the lab. I Happens to the best of us.
PETER: Yeah. absolutely. I love those sad girl vibes.
OLAYA: And I think it’s important to like, bring that conversation to light and we get to, I mean, maybe not me personally anymore, but, Royal, we, we get to define what professionalism means to us moving forward. And I think so the, the National Postdoc Association has this like six main competencies that you have to, “have to”, that they suggest you achieve by the end of your postdoc. And one of them is professionalism. And I think it is important to like, be the best version of yourself that you can be both scientifically and personally, but it’s also very important to define it on like 2021 terms.
KAELA: Yeah. I’ve always seen that like one of the competencies that professionalism competency from the National Postdoc Association and in my mind without ever really looking into it, I always thought they meant professionalism in a way that’s like, you can’t cuss out your coworkers, even if you want to, like, you can’t just yell at people. And I’m like, that is probably like a little bit about what they mean, but probably not all of it. , That’s not, that’s probably not the take home message they wanted me to get, but that’s the thing that I’m like, can’t yell at people.
OLAYA: Yeah. Which is always a good life lesson.
KAELA: Yes, yes.
PETER: It’s not the most constructive way of communicating.
OLAYA: You can yell in excitement. [KAELA & PETER: Yes]. When your test number 19 finally works.
PETER: That is an appropriate time. So it sounds like your search for a postdoc was heavily centered around an idea of finding community, being able to cultivate community wherever you landed. Can you talk a little bit about what aspects of community you were searching for or how you found that in your postdoc?
KAELA: I don’t think I’ve ever thought of it that way, but yeah, that definitely was what I was doing. For me, a lot of it, like communication is a always been really important to me and being able to like fully express myself. And so that is like, the community that I have in my lab is very reflective of that, where we like have conversations about like what’s working and what’s not, and that’s everything from like science to interpersonal relationships in the lab to like funding things like grants that we’re choosing to apply for. But a big focus of my community in grad school has actually been from like my, my internet friends, like my Twitter friends, which I think is something I never, ever thought would happen. And so that sense of community has actually been incredible because there are no other postdocs in my lab, I’m the only one. And so I get a lot of, like my advisor if I’m like struggling with something, I like reach out to that community and network of postdocs to like get their advice and see like a lateral, I guess, peer level like what they think or if they have any thoughts. And that’s been, honestly, probably some of the best like mentorship I’ve ever had is from those kinds of conversations. And so I like to think of the idea of building community now and my postdoc. I like to remember, I guess that it’s not just the immediate people that I see every day, especially like during the pandemic, I barely see anybody. But it’s actually a much broader network of people that like I have access to and can talk to and kind of lean on.
PETER: Hmm. That is beautiful. I love that idea of, I think growing up in the middle of nowhere, New York, where I grew up, the idea of community was physical and about how far away you were from the center of town. And now we can maybe expand upon that idea into a virtual space, into an intellectual space, into an identity space rather than just where you physically are situated.
OLAYA: Yeah, cause like science by definition has been a global endeavor and now it’s easier than ever to just talk to people on the other side of the world. So why shouldn’t you? [KAELA: Yeah] Has anyone ever complained of having too much support?
KAELA: Yeah. No, not that I know of.
PETER: You’re just too supportive of me.
OLAYA: Yeah.
PETER: All right.
OLAYA: So this community around you, what type of people do you most see either like on average or the particular circles that you move in? Are they the same? Are they not? What’s the landscape, I would say? And do you think it needs to change?
KAELA: I think this is another way in which my lab is very different. So Victor, my PI is a man, but everybody else in our lab is a woman. So there’s 10 of us total, not including him. And we’re all from different areas in the world. Like we have international representation, even like within the United States, different like regional representation. And I absolutely love that. It is fantastic, but I think it, the reason that I love it the most is because the way that we all communicate with one another is just so precise. But also with this like intentional idea that we all have different perspectives on like a problem. Like if something is not working in lab, the way that we approach it from everyone’s different, like science backgrounds, like Avanti is a biochemist, Erica is a structural biologist, Stephanie is a geneticist. So when we sit down to problem-solve or talk about anything really, our perspectives are so different and it just makes the conversation so much better. I think outside of my lab, most of my friends are like historically excluded people in science. And a lot of that is because of like the fellowships that I hold and that community and network of people has been so great. So like from where I sit immediately, I feel like, well represented and like super supportive, like we talked about from all of this people. But a lot of the times when I go teach even at Agnes, which is like a minority-serving institution a lot of my students will tell me that they’ve never had like a Black woman professor before or a Black queer professor before. And it’s in those moments that it, like, it makes me sad and breaks my heart mainly because I also have never had a Black woman professor or even a teacher. And so it really solidifies to me that like the work that like I do in Black in Neuro, but also the work that these, a lot of the fellowships I have are, are trying towards or whatever, like it’s needed work. And in fact, if we could move faster, I think that would be really great for all of us. But it can be like, I think it can be challenging sometimes for me to like, hear those perspectives from students, because I want to like pull a Mufasa from Lion King and like show them the world, everything the light touches. But I know how, like how, like invalidating that can feel like to apply to a graduate program and it be like very homogenous, like all like cis, heterosexual, white people, like not a lick of diversity in sight, but to still want to go there and improve that environment or go there to succeed and like prove people wrong and like show them that you can do it. And so a lot of the times my mentoring to them is about changing their perspective and making sure that like they’re doing this because they want to do it. Not because they want to prove that they can do it because I know they can do it and they should know that they can do it. But do you really wanna do, like, what is your motivation to do it? Cause we can do a whole bunch of other cooler things like outta spite, not, we don’t have to go to graduate school. Definitely. That’s hard.
OLAYA: Yeah, that’s important. But it’s also, it’s hard to navigate cuz, I mean, not having that experience myself, but I can imagine the pressure of like wanting to do something else, but then feeling that you’re quitting. [KAELA: Yeah]. And that you’re failing all these other people.
PETER: Have you guys seen “In the Heights” either the musical or the movie?
KAELA: No, I have not.
OLAYA: I have watched the movie.
KAELA: I’ve heard about it though.
OLAYA: I really like the movie.
PETER: I love the movie. I really, I also saw it on Broadway when it was at, but I think one of the messages I really like from that movie is, oh, I cannot remember anyone’s name all of a sudden, but one of the main characters she grew up in Washington Heights, New York, and then went to Stanford and came back. And the story’s about her struggles with being away from her community and feeling like you have to represent for whatever your community is and how no one is talking about how much pressure that puts on an individual, both when the community is like, we’re so excited for you to achieving and getting, or like moving up in life and the additional pressures of just whatever situation you are in whatever the educational system you’re in or life situation is.
KAELA: I was gonna say though, I feel like that’s really important in that actually was my experience leaving Agnes and going to graduate school in DC and at Georgetown where I left this like super, I love Agnes. It’s like a bunch of radical intersectional feminists and like it’s a minority-serving institution. So most, most of the people there are like historically excluded or like come from socioeconomic status. And it was like the place that I learned about like my own identity as a queer woman. And then I left and I went to Georgetown and I was like, I…, You guys are not…, This is different than how I experience life. And so it was like, it was kind of a, like a, like a reverse culture shock. And I ended up like accidentally or inadvertently having to like teach a lot of people, things about like radical feminist theory, And why certain things are like not okay or are okay. Or even just like the demeanor in which I carried myself, made a lot of people uncomfortable. And I had to have a lot of conversations with people where I was like, I am actually not here to make you comfortable. I don’t know if you knew that. [PETER: Yeah]. But where I’m from in old Agnes Scott, that is like the number one rule that we have.
OLAYA: Do you have any thoughts about institutional support? What can they do to make sure that you and all the people who come after you are gonna feel welcome and are gonna feel like they can succeed and supported? And it actually starts attracting more people who are not all the same.
KAELA: Yeah. This is something that I try to think about a lot, cuz I do a lot of like DEI work. And one of the things that I think is unfortunate about not just academia, but also like America as a capitalist society in general is that unfortunately we have to like incentivize people to like be more inclusive and to like, know what the true definition of equity is and to have policies within their institution or organizations that promote those concepts. So like one of the big things that has been happening recently is like the idea that mentorship is being considered in tenure and promotion where it wasn’t before. but the idea is that like, in my mind, my heart of hearts, people should want to have inclusive environments to have diverse environments, to have equitable and accessible and accountable institutions and departments. And so it can be really hard like being the only in any sort of environment, like when you walk in and there’s only so much like implicit bias training or like whatever kind of training that you can do in a department where like some people just need to retire.
PETER: Mmmmmhh
OLAYA: <laugh>
KAELA: Where some people will just need to be like, let go. And it, for me, it’s like a bigger structural conversation, but I will say the advice that I always give people that are walking into those situations, right, where they’re walking into this really homogeneous environment is to make sure that they have a group of people who advocate for them. Like not people who support them, like people who support them they need that too; but like advocates, people who are advocating for you to succeed, to not have to do all of this, like DEI or like Jedi labor, like for you to really have people in your corner that are from the beginning of negotiations to your first day at that institution, or like here are the things that are gonna count for your tenure and promotion. This is what they look like. These are the rules, this is what we’re following, but I think it can be, it’s hard because a lot of the time, like, as an abolitionist for me, a lot of it is like, we should just like start over. Like, let’s just, just [OLAYA: mm-hmm ], we’ll just like erase it and we’ll start over and we’ll start again. But that, it’s hard because that that’s like scary to people. It’s scary to me even sometimes, because I’m like, I don’t even know what that looks like, but that’s like the point of abolition is thinking beyond your creativity.
OLAYA: You don’t have to have the answers. You just know that the system is wrong.
KAELA: Yeah, exactly. [OLAYA: <laugh>]
PETER: Yeah.
OLAYA: Let’s try something else guys.
KAELA: <laugh>
PETER: Uh, I love all of that. So I guess next on our fun list of questions is why should anyone do a postdoc? What was your motivation?
KAELA: Yeah, so if I’m completely honest, my main motivation for doing a postdoc was that I already had postdoc funding and it was the easiest job that I could get after defending.
PETER: I love that. Honestly, I did the same.
KAELA: It was very much like what, one of my roommates, had like applied to like real people, jobs, like at the FDA and like in industry and she had like more time. I don’t know, I had a lot of time. But I was like, that just seems like so much work and I’m already drowning in graduate student work right now so I can’t focus on that. But I do know that postdocs are pretty common and I would be a free postdoc for any lab. This is like the easiest solution for me and I’m willing to try to make the most of it for myself. So my motivation really was like, I needed a job.
PETER: Sure. A good reason.
OLAYA: It is a very good motivation, especially in 2020 .
KAELA: Yeah.
PETER: Yeah. I hear that. It’s the same reason I did a postdoc. I’s like, well, my only option right now, so here we go. [KAELA: Yeah.] I also think that like, at least for me, a postdoc was sold to me as you’re not closing any doors.
KAELA: Yes. Very much the same.
PETER: And it was very like, you’re doing no harm by doing this. And,…
OLAYA: Well, I have heard that it does put us back economically.
KAELA: Oh yeah, definitely. My mind, I was like, I was a poor grad student, so I can at least be a little less poor as… Like a little mm-hmm
PETER: It’s a low bar.
KAELA: I should also mention like my motivation, I was really clear with the PIs that I was interviewing with, that my motivation to do a postdoc was to figure out what I like, at its like core maybe, was to figure out what I wanted to do. Like, I was really upfront with them about like where I was at in graduate school and how like jaded and dejected I was in that this for me was like a Hail Mary for academia, but that I wasn’t a hundred percent certain I wanted to be a professor, that I might like take a job somewhere else or do something else. And some PIs I interviewed with were like super cool with that. And others of them were like, I don’t really love that. And I said, that’s fine.
PETER: Yeah.
KAELA: I’ll go somewhere else.
OLAYA: Yeah. But that, that is a really important question to ask.
KAELA: I really put these professors like through the ringer, like we were like matchmaking. I had so many questions for them in so many plans for how I wanted to succeed or knew I could succeed. And I was like, these are the things that I need. Can you do these things? Also, are you going to retire or take like an administrative position at some point in the future? Cause that would really set me back. That would set us back. I’ve already done that. And it was hard.
PETER: So it sounds like the plan was not necessarily to always do a postdoc, but a postdoc was never off the table.
KAELA: Yes, that is correct.
PETER: That’s absolutely fair. So given that you are now a postdoc, can you tell us a little bit about what you’re getting out of this experience?
KAELA: I will say now I’m incredibly happy that I decided to do a postdoc, like specifically where I decided to do it in the lab that I’m in. And I think one of the biggest things that I’ve gotten out of it is just confidence and validation and like myself and what I want to, or myself and like the fact that I can do whatever I want to do. [PETER: Mm-hmm ] I think I, even though I was really like intentional in those meetings with PIs I did not know about like what I needed out of a postdoc, I was still like scared shitless. I don’t know if we can curse. But I was still like really scared that I was gonna fail and like do a bad job and through my postdoc now, because the advice is because the experience and like the community that I’ve built is so supportive and so encouraging, I feel really empowered and bolded to do whatever I want to do. So instead of, I feel like I set a lot of my long-term career goals really early on, but they were coming from that place of, can I do this? As opposed to do I want to do this? And now…
OLAYA: Yes, we can!
KAELA: Yeah. And now I feel very much like I like the world is my oyster. And a lot of that is just because of the backing of the people that like the people that I have in my corner. And I think that that honestly has been one of the best experiences for me to just grow in self-confidence and like, know and learn my worth and then make sure that I’m like getting that from other people.
OLAYA: And that’s so good to hear cuz I mean, as I said, I was very involved with the postoc community where I was and you definitely hear a lot of sad stories…
KAELA: Yeah.
OLAYA: So it’s good, it’s always good to hear the people who are thriving too, because it gives people like people coming in, there’s hope and you have to be intentional as you were saying, but it can be a good, a good experience. It’s just that everyone, not just you as a potential postdoc, everyone needs to put their all in making it a good experience. So it’s not like it’s all on you. And if you have a bad experience, it’s your fault. But is there any bad parts? Like, I’m sure you have bad days, like everyone, but what’s something that you’re like, ah, I wish this wasn’t like this.
KAELA: I think the biggest things that I always talk about in terms of drawbacks of doing a postdoc, and we touched on this earlier is the pay and the benefits. And I even, I make more money than most postdocs.
OLAYA: Would you be comfortable sharing?
KAELA: Yeah, so I make $64,000, which is a lot for postdoc. I also, I come from generational wealth, so my family is rich. And in graduate school the mentality was very much like you gotta do that by yourself. And I was like, okay, fine. And then I moved back home. And so I experience a lot of privileges in being a postdoc. So like I don’t have financial issues. I don’t have like a partner or kids, by choice, like don’t be sad for me. I’m very happy . But like, so for me though, when I talk at my friends and my peers who do have families, who do have kids, it’s always like the financial struggle, it’s always the tax issue, which is just wild.
OLAYA: Yeah, especially for fellows. If you have a fellowship, it’s crazy.
KAELA: It’s honestly like they make up the rules, they make them up. For whatever, best behooves the university. And it upsets me to my core.
OLAYA: Mm-hmm yeah. And I think, and this is again, another lesson that I would like to just like throw out. It’s it’s such a, like, they’re trying to like play you, cuz like having a fellowship of your own it’s so good for your CV, and like, it shows that you’re doing great, what you wanna do, which is do research, and it will potentially help you land a faculty position. But then on the other hand, I don’t know your institution, but in my institution you’re not an employee mm-hmm so you don’t have retirement benefits. The health insurance is a shitshow and people struggle with the taxes cuz they don’t take it out of your paycheck and you don’t have all the pre-tax benefits and you just like have to figure it out by yourself. And if you go ask for help, they’re like “we cannot give tax advice.”
KAELA: Yes. Well, so at Emory in my mind it’s even worse because essentially there are like different classes of postdoc. So you can be, so I am a postdoc who is an employee of the university because of like the specific wording and the grant that I have but there are two or three other different classifications of postdoc where you’re not an employee of the university. You don’t get in any of those benefits. And it just is like the mental gymnastics that happened between me and HR when they tried to explain to me how this works is overwhelming, but so that’s definitely a drawback. And then I will say the second drawback, I think a lot of the times is stability and security. One of the things that I’m grappling with right now in realizing that like I can do whatever I want after this, is that I’m probably gonna have to leave Georgia, like to get a job, to get the job that I want. And even if I were to stay there aren’t that many institutions in the state of Georgia. And so I think, I think about it from the perspective of like, it’s really easy for me to pick up and move somewhere else. But if I was a postdoc that had like a family and kids, and like really like trying to build a life in a community, right? With your partner, in your, like whoever your like, family is, biological or chosen. That instability and lack of security, I think is a really big problem that postdocs face, because it’s like, I have to live in this place maybe for three to four years and I’ll go on the market and I’ll see what happens. And then maybe I’ll have to move to Oregon or I’ll have to move to like Maine or whatever. Like there’s not a lot of…
OLAYA: Wherever there’s…
KAELA: Yeah, wherever the job is is. Yeah.
OLAYA: So you said, you said before, you started in 2020, right? So maybe not the best time to start a new adventure in your life. Did you feel like compared to, for example, when you started grad school, starting in that sort of like mayhem affected the way you adapted to your, to your new lab?
KAELA: I, it definitely like affected the way, like, it was just weird is honestly what it felt like. So like, I, one of the benefits that I also had in coming to Atlanta is like, I’m from here. So my family’s here. I have friends here. So that was nice, but it still felt like we couldn’t see each other because of the pandemic. But Emory as an institution was open to like research staff, you just had to do like a bunch of clearance paperwork basically. So I basically started my postdoc in what felt like a very insular bubble. Like it was just weird to adjust to, but then thankfully Black in Neuro happened, like I started July 6th, and then Black in Neuro week was like the end of July. And so through that, I met so many people at Emory, like virtually, but like at Emory and I was like building community that way. So it was really good, but it was a, it was a very strange time I remember, because Emory has a really great, so I’ve heard, we have (I haven’t done anything with them yet) like postdoctoral association in the office of like postdoctoral education. And they normally have like all of these orientations and fundraisers and like cool little like events for postdocs, which apparently a lot of people go to, that’s, people like pinky-promised that to me when I like before I took around. And then the pandemic happened and I was like, well, crap. I was really excited. We have a thing it’s like postdoc prom and [OLAYA: What?!] I was so excited. Yeah.
OLAYA: Wow, nice. We had pizza. I mean, we had a lot of cool events, but not postdoc prom.
KAELA: So we didn’t have it because of the pandemic, but apparently it basically is just like normal high school prom, except for everyone can drink legally. Yeah, they like rent out a venue. I think it’s like, there’s the Emory Hotel conference center, but they like have a decorating committee and they like organize. It’s got like a theme. It’s basically just like prom, but for adults. So people come and bring their partners and they have childcare too. So like, you can like bring your tiny humans if you want. And there’s normally like, people go out to dinner beforehand, like with their other postdocs in their department. And it’s just like a night of dancing and fun.
OLAYA: Wow. Fun. And I bet, yeah, if I have to bet, I would say that all the international postdocs are really excited about it.
KAELA: I’m hoping eventually we’ll get one before I like leave, I guess.
OLAYA: Yeah.
PETER: Fingers crossed So, you’re on a fellowship right now. [KAELA: Yes]. Which I believe means you are fairly time limited. What is your, I guess, plan for the duration of your postdoc and life post-postdoc?
KAELA: So I will say it’s funny that, that we’re having this conversation now, cuz a couple of weeks ago, I walked into my boss’s office and I told him that I didn’t know. Like my long term career goal had always been to be a professor at Agnes Scott college. That’s like what I wanted when I went to graduate school, that to me was like, I’m gonna come back. I’m gonna get this job. I’m gonna do that. And now that very much is like up in the air. And so I like walked into his office and I was like, I don’t have any career goals at the moment, like right now. And he was like, what are you talking about? <laugh> and, but, so we, like, we talked it, we talked about it and talked it through in terms of like my experience and stuff. And so my current fellowship ends in like 2024 and I’m applying, I think I’m applying right now to the Hannah Gray fellowship. So I’m really just like trying to enjoy the moment of being a postdoc. I still have some time to figure it out. I probably like by the fall need to really know what I’m doing, but for me, I’m really focusing on just like publishing papers and doing research and trying to figure out like, what brings me joy. Like I want the next step of my career to be something as fulfilling and as great as the position I’m in right now. And so I don’t wanna rush it. And I feel like there are a lot of things about academia that I don’t foresee changing anytime soon. And I don’t know if I want to be like a part of that necessarily. [PETER: Yeah] But it again is coming from this place of a big part of the reason why I always wanted to be a professor was like to prove to myself that I could do it. And now I am very secure in like my skillset and the things that I do and how good I am at my job that I’m like, I could do this job. I can nail this job. I know that. But at what cost to me, like emotionally and like happiness wise? [OLAYA: Yeah] Financially as well. And so I really am trying to figure out like what I wanna do next, but I’m trying to approach it in a fun way instead of with my type A personality.
PETER: Yeah. I think it sounds once again, going back to that concept of community, like, as you’re stepping out of this postdoc, what does the community look like that you want to actively be a part of?
KAELA: I think that I want it, I have said this before more poetically probably cuz I like got, I got to like write down, but like I really want to be, I want academia to be a community and a collective that is like so rich in perspective and filled with such like diversity from race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, like all of that, that it can’t help, but be inclusive, right? That the policies that are around can’t help, but result in inclusivity that promote equity and that really change the way that we view accountability and accessibility in the field. And to me that looks like putting more Black, Indigenous, trans women in positions of power, but then really giving them power, like really giving them the opportunity to succeed in these, whether they’re like admin roles or Dean roles or Department Chair roles, or like full professorships, even. Right? Giving them the opportunity to live out their wildest dreams and create the future that I know that they all think about. And so for me, when I look at academia now I see the rumblings of that. I see it in my students. I see it in a lot of my friends who are like about to like defend their PhDs and figure out what they wanna do next. I see it in myself sometimes when I’m not too tired, but like I see it in so many different ways that I’m like, it’s there, but I just don’t want it to go, like, I don’t want that motivation and that fire, that everybody has about these issues to go away. And I feel even in this like last year that like it is dimed on like a broad institutional level, but not on like an individual trainee level or even like an early career scientist level. [PETER: Mm-hmm ] And I want, I want whatever I do next to really continue that sort of motivation and that pursuit to still be able to be there for people and try and make those policy changes and talk more about these issues in academia, just in general.
OLAYA: But it’s still hard to like strike that balance of like making an inhospitable environment better. Like someone needs to go into the bad place first and it’s a lot to ask of that generation of people. [KAELA: Yeah] And it’s a lot of pressure and I’m sure a lot of people feel like I have to do this because if I don’t do it, it will never happen. And it, it’s very sad cuz as you were saying, it’s like abolition, just restart. We need to… Afresh.
PETER: But it’s like also that you’re adding burden, traditionally, you’re adding burden onto people who are already super burdened.
KAELA: Yeah. And I think a big part of it too is like, it’s that extra burden. It’s like that literal extra burden of like having to do that kind of work in an institution, right? But then it’s also like we were talking about earlier, like the societal and familiar pressures, like from your community, cuz you don’t want to, you don’t wanna feel like a quitter or seem like a quitter or like feel like you’re letting people down. And that used to be actually when I was deciding that I was gonna become career goalless for a brief period of time, one of my biggest worries was that I was going to, like, for me it was like I was gonna disappoint my dad and that’s like, nothing I’d ever wanna do, even though he’s made it very clear that I’m a grown woman and I like, I can do what I want. <laugh> it’s just me. But for me it was like, I don’t want to, I just want my family. I don’t want all of these like other NIH fellowships I’ve had that, like we were also talking about only count like a positive outcome is only you becoming a professor, like I don’t wanna let down the, the like NINDS diversity open office has funded my career since I was a sophomore in college. It’s my community. It’s like other people in Black in Neuro as well. And I had to really make a decision for me as a person that like I had to like tap into that selfishness that we were talking about earlier and be like, no, like my happiness is what is most important in my sphere. And that doesn’t mean that I can’t do things to help my community, but it does mean that at a certain point, having autonomy and agency in what I do means that like I also have to like protect myself and protect my own energy [PETER: mm-hmm ]. And I think that that has been like a really big struggle that I imagine a lot of like historically excluded postdocs go through, and it's really overwhelming. And I think one of the things that I guess is also a drawback about doing a postdoc from my perspective is that there are very few PIs, like more senior researchers who remember that feeling or who have ever even experienced it. So they actually can't help you because they don't know what you're talking about. [PETER: Right.] And it's like, how do I explain this existential dread to you when you don't know what I'm saying?
PETER: Right. Because, you’ve had some many advantages in your life.
OLAYA: And I’ve also….
KAELA: Yeah.
OLAYA: Yeah, and I’ve also heard from PIs, what you were saying before with the, with the people, some of the people you interviewed with, they’re like, I don’t know how to mentor you if you don’t wanna be me. Yeah. And I think it’s really, that’s so important.
KAELA: Yeah, that’s so weird. It’s weird.
OLAYA: Yeah, mini-me was not a very agreeable character. But I mean, it is important when you’re choosing a lab maybe you do not want to go to the place where everyone has to be an academic. But I also think it important that those PIs recognize that more and more people might do a postdoc without the intention of being a PI. And they have to at least be able to give them the resources to thrive with that goal.
PETER: Mm-hmm, .
KAELA: One of the things that I’ve learned actually in teaching throughout my postdoc that I think is the, one of the most valuable, like self-aware things I’ve taken away is that I’m a good teacher, but I’m an exceptional teacher to students who I can like see a piece of myself in, who I think are like motivated by the same things that I’m motivated by, that like we share some sort of like common bond. But what I’m having to learn. And what I have learned, I think as a professor is that I still have to teach to those other students. Right. [OLAYA: Mm-hmm ], those other students who don't see science the way that I do. And so I try to make sure that my syllabus and my class and the way that I do things are structured in a way where everybody's learning and everybody's strengths are showing. But for whatever reason, I feel like not every person is that like not every PI or professor is that introspective. Like it very much is that like, I'm making a mini-version of myself and I don't look at anything else. And I'm like, no, I have known myself 29 years. You do not need more of me running around. [PETER: \]
KAELA: Chaos. Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. Absolute chaos, though. And so I, I think one of the best things that Victor has actually taught me is that the way that you mentor people should be about them, not about you. It should be about what their goals are and you are coming in to support them, to advocate for them, to say their name in rooms that they’re not in, to think of ideas or see opportunities and be like “hey, I saw this thing and I thought about you, what do you think about this?” Or to find papers or just bonds of commonality to where you get to as a mentor, be like, these are my mentor strengths: I like know a lot of people I publish really good or something [PETER: mm-hmm ] I can help you in that area. But if I can't, I also can find you someone who can. And for whatever reason, no one ever got that training. So nobody like knows that it's like, you're not actually supposed to be creating little robots. You're supposed to be creating people who have different experiences and perspectives and values and priorities, because that is also part of what makes science really cool.
PETER: Mm-hmm having all of those different voices and perspectives coming together to tackle problems and questions and ideas.
KAELA: Exactly.
OLAYA: I’ll be, I’ll be waiting to hear what you do next, whatever that is. [PETER: I’m excited.] I will check your website every year from now to 2024. And I will cheer you whatever you do.
KAELA: <laugh> Thank you very much
PETER: Absolutely.
OLAYA: But I would, I would like to come back to the how you picked your lab. You mentioned before that you went about it like matchmaking and giving your extensive experience with dating reality TV. I really wanna know the list of questions that you asked these PIs, or at least like the highlights, things that you were thinking about when you were trying to decide where to do a postdoc.
KAELA: Yeah. So I, for me, like I said, the mentorship aspect was like the most important thing for me. And so the way that I approached it, I was like, this is like slightly a convoluted story. I was, I had just got in my F99/K00, which is the grant that I have right now and I was having a really hard time with like my mentoring team in graduate school. And so I actually like interviewed for my postdoc in secret, like a year and a half before I defended. And one day I just showed up to lab and I was like, I have a postdoc, so I have to leave. And they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, I gotta, you gotta go. These are the rules.
OLAYA: Oh, how, like far ahead was this?
KAELA: This was like a, a year and a half.
OLAYA: Oh, okay. So you actually told them a year and a half before.
KAELA: Yeah.
OLAYA: Okay.
KAELA: But basically I was so fed up with feeling just like a failure in graduate school and just feeling, I like I wasn’t getting anywhere cuz I was like a fourth year student and I was at that point where I think everybody where you’re just like, what if I were to just quit though? Like what is the worst that could happen? And unfortunately I am a Capricorn, so I never quit anything in my life for better or worse <laugh>. And so I was like, well, if I can’t quit or if I won’t quit rather, I can, I won’t, if I won’t quit, then I really needed to take stock of like what my strengths and weaknesses were in that moment as a graduate student and what I needed to like, just get out of graduate school. I like made this timeline of all the experiments that I needed to do. And then I started making this like list of like my own personal pros and cons like types of experiments that I like to do, types of things that I like to do, things that I don’t do, things that I suck at and don’t care about getting better at, like things that I’m like, I’m fine just not doing that. And then I went back to like all of the papers that I enjoyed reading while I was writing my thesis. And I was like, all right, I’m gonna just like reach out to these people. And a lot of it was because I had this K00 funding that I was like, surely a free postdoc is something that people need, want [PETER: mm-hmm ] would find appealing. And so that like that definitely helped. And I think also helped me feel really emboldened in doing it. And so I sent, I like cold-emailed a bunch of a bunch of PIs and maybe like five or six of them got back to me. I probably cold-emailed like 12 and then I like did interviews with them. But the questions that I asked them really centered around like their mentoring strategy. And I also should say, I didn't have like a paper at this point or anything for my graduate school experience. I just had me, and this grant and like desperation, honestly, and this list of questions that really focused on like, what was their mentoring strategy? Like what is the, like, how would they define the culture in their lab? And I asked these questions to like them, the people in their lab, people in their department. Like I tried to meet with as many people as possible, really. I really approached it from the aspect of me telling them what I needed to like, this is what I had in graduate school and that did not work and I hate it here. This is what I need to succeed, which is like essentially the way that my training with Victor is, actually, it literally is the way that my training with Victor is structured. And honestly, God bless that man. He is like so nice, so supportive. And I was like, why is he like, I am actually asking for some outlandish things. And so one of the big things that I asked for was that as a postdoc in the lab, like, I be solely in charge of like the entirety of my project. So that's everything from like the budget, the grad students and the undergrads and together, like I meet with those students first and we talk about their project and their work and we meet with Victor like twice a month. So that we're all on the same page about what we're doing. But like I am the lead person in that role and some PIs where like "no" [OLAYA: \] and others where like... And I totally get why. I have, I was having a lot of confidence in myself, but some were like, no, others were like, I think that there's a way that we can definitely like build up to that. And Victor was like, I think that this actually would be a great idea. And it's been, I've learned a lot about the 50 11 million things that PIs do that no one tells you about like budgets and like admin work and like protocol approvals, my least favorite thing.
PETER: Terrible.
KAELA: But so I basically like went to each PI. I went to them like to the labs and I was like, this is what I want my training plan to look like. And we have to write a training plan for like our K grant. I was like, this is what I want it to look like. And I need it to be like this. Like I want to do this my way, with my intention and decisions in it. And I need to know if you’re gonna support me doing that. And one of the things also is like, I wanted to teach and I wanted to have the freedom to like do panels or whatever. And Victor was really the only PI who was like, absolutely, we will set you up for like the career you want and the success that you want. And it was wasn’t that I think the other two labs, they didn’t say, no, they just like, weren’t enthusiastic about it. They were just like, that sounds like a lot of work that you’re gonna have to do and I’m not gonna help.
OLAYA: On your free time.
KAELA: Yeah, exactly. [PETER: Mm-hmm ] And so for me, it came down to how excited he was for me to join the lab. And that also showed when I like negotiated my salary and negotiated, like moving. And I had really like put all my eggs in this basket, unbeknownst to him and the HR person at the time. Like they could have just been like, no, we're not giving you any of that. And I would've just come anyway. \ But I didn't.
OLAYA: You can say that now.
KAELA: Yes, I can say that now, but I did it and I was really proud of myself. And so I negotiated like really hard and it was, for me, that was like one of the first like kind of mini tests that I like put Victor through as a PI and as an advocate. And he like surpassed all of my expectations and it was the first time I remember cuz we stayed in touch and he would advise me even when I was like finishing up in graduate school, like we would talk, we would meet, we would talk about papers. We published like a whole review together. Like I was so invested in this man, in his lab. And he was so invested in me that I was like, if I can’t succeed in this environment, like if I don’t love what I’m doing under these circumstances, I’m never gonna love it. [PETER: Mm-hmm ] [OLAYA: \] So that is, was a really long convoluted way of how I pick my lab.
PETER: I love it.
OLAYA: Really, really good. It’s a great way.
PETER: Phenomenal.
KAELA: It does take like being confident and having like faith in yourself. And I think that that’s like the one piece of advice I give every graduate student is like, you can do this job. Like, it doesn’t seem like it, and I know it doesn’t feel like it, but like have faith in yourself because you’ve worked so hard, right? Like people earn PhDs, they don’t just give them out. So like you have all of the tools and the resources. And unfortunately, at the end of the day, if graduate school isn’t preparing people, any of us for postdocs, what is it preparing us for then? [PETER: Mm-hmm ] Trauma bond. Like? [OLAYA: \] So like you have everything you as an individual, have everything within you to find the perfect postdoc for you. You just gotta have a little faith in yourself.
PETER: I love that. And I think that’s also a great note to end on with that beautiful piece of advice.
KAELA: This was so much fun!
OLAYA: Yeah, thank you!
PETER: Thank you so much for joining us! So as we’re wrapping up here, one final question for you, Kaela, where can people find you on social media?
KAELA: Oh, you can find me on Twitter or Instagram @kss_phd. I also have a website, it’s kaelasingleton.com.
PETER: Awesome. Well thank you for taking time, both of you, to record this.
KAELA: Of course, it was awesome.
OLAYA: Wasn’t that something? It was such a joy talking to Kaela and reflecting on how to take charge of your own career in the midst of a global pandemic and racial justice awakening. I just cannot get bored of listening to her. We can all learn a lesson or two from her confidence and agency and just like general amazingness.
PETER: Absolutely. I remember when I was editing this podcast over Thanksgiving break, I was sitting alone in a tiny room in my parents’ house in New Hampshire and there may or may not have been several silent tears of joy just falling down my cheeks. All of her lessons and her, her passion behind all of the stories that she provides us are it’s, it’s just evident in how she speaks and she’s just truly phenomenal.
OLAYA: Yes. And you should follow her on Twitter @kss_phd, AKA beyoncé of neuro.
PETER: Yes.
OLAYA: Please remember to send us your comments, takes, experiences, questions, reality show recommendations to phindinganswers@gmail.com. Remember P-H-I-N-D-I-N-G. We will include them in our final episodes when we look back to our conversations also, please follow us on Twitter @phindinganswers, again with a PhD, and we will address the topics there too. You can get our episodes from our website phindinganswers.github.io, find the link on Twitter, it’s so much easier; or wherever you listen to podcasts. We’ll be back next week with another awesome guest.
PETER: Woo! Bye guys.
[MUSIC: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]
