Ep 5 — Ericka Peterson transcript

[JINGLE: What, who, why, when, where? This is PhinDing Answers.

Music: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]

OLAYA: Hello, answer seekers.

PETER: Bonjour, answer seekers <laugh> this is our final episode, or at least our final episode with a guest on it. And we are again, so thankful to all of our guests for joining us and for being willing to be part of this podcast. And this specific conversation offers the perspective of someone who oversees postdocs and was in fact a postdoc herself. So Olaya, who are we talking with?

OLAYA: So our final guest is Ericka Peterson from Columbia University Office of Postdoctoral Affairs. I had the pleasure of collaborating with her during my time at Columbia. I benefited from the astounding programming that she puts together with her team. And I, have the honor of calling her a mentor. I’ve had many conversations of my own career with her. And I really appreciate that. And I hope that you all enjoy what she has to say. And let’s have her introduce herself first.

ERICKA: My name is Ericka Peterson. I’m the Executive Director of the Office of Postdoctoral Affairs at Columbia University in New York City. I’ve been in that position for a number of years and at the university, it will make six years in January.

PETER: Yes, Ericka is truly fantastic. And this conversation to me really highlights the many opportunities available to postdocs if you just look for them, they are at your university, they are in your community. I know that this episode is a bit shorter than the other ones and that is because of some time constraints around recording, but do not think that that means there’s not information in this episode because it’s jam-packed with tons of amazing bits of information from Ericka Peterson. Final note I’ll say is, remember that this conversation was recorded in late 2021, who knows what’s changed since then? I don’t even know, but Ericka is wonderful and amazing, and we are so happy to be able to share this conversation with you.

OLAYA: Enjoy.

OLAYA: Hello. today we have Ericka Peterson and I’m very excited, about having her here, cuz we’ve talked to other people about the postdoc experience, but all of them are either current or recent postsdoc. And even though Ericka was a postdoc once, we have her here as sort of the admin side of things, cuz a lot of infrastructure issues have come up in our other conversations and it would be good to have this other perspective to our conversation. So hello, Ericka. And welcome. I’m glad to have you here.

ERICKA: Thank you, Olaya. Nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

PETER: Yeah. Thank you for joining us. We’re very excited to have you. So I think first off we would all like to know from a perspective of a postdoc office, what is a postdoc?

ERICKA: I think we stick with the NPA definition and that is that postdoc scholars or, as we like to call them, trainees are individuals holding a doctoral degree who are engaged in a temporary period of mentored research and or scholarly training for the purpose of acquiring the professional skills needed to pursue a career path of their own choosing.

PETER: I love that definition in that it doesn’t specify what that career path is. I love that it’s open and keeps it broad.

ERICKA: Exactly.

OLAYA: Yeah. Do you, you feel like all offices of postdoc affairs go by the NPA definition of a postdoc or do you feel like there’s still some debate in the field as to what a postdoc is?

ERICKA: I would say that all of the institutions and other offices that I’ve come in contact with follow the NPA for a lot of guidance, including the definition. I’m sure there’s a few out there doing their own thing, but for the most part, we’re lucky to have a valuable resource like the NPA that provides this type of guidance and standardizes [OLAYA: Indeed] things for postdocs.

PETER: Absolutely. And just quick note, NPA stands for the the National Postdoctoral Association. I’m curious though, because we have have this fantastic hub, the NPA, for postdocs here in the United States, how does your office take into account maybe differences in training, across different countries and how they train their doctoral candidates?

ERICKA: So are you thinking about how their experience would be coming from an, an outside institution or…?

PETER: A great question.

ERICKA: I’m trying to understand the question.

PETER: In terms of what we count as a postdoc. So I know that at least from my office’s perspective, we see a lot of postdocs who are coming in with some training that happened after they received their PhD. However, depending on what that training is, it might not actually be considered a postdoctoral experience.

ERICKA: Right. I have definitely heard of, of similar experiences and I, and I think that’s an important question to ask because it also helps postdocs and PIs to understand and set expectations. You know, lab cultures are different. There could be other cultural implications and postdocs and PIs need to understand what the postdoc has experienced previously and how that might affect their experience in the current lab, whether you know, trainings were different internationally or they had different lab cultures. I think that’s really something important to consider when joining a new lab, especially in the United States.

OLAYA: And so now you have all these years of experience being an admin for postdocs, but how does all that in information that you have now compared to what you knew when you were a postdoc yourself? [ERICKA: <laughs>] Has anything changed? <laugh> And you don’t have to say how long ago that was.

ERICKA: Oh, I think I’ve lost track, but it was quite some time ago. But I think that’s a great question. And I think that postdocs today are more visible and more valued really. Although I was a postdoc quite a long time ago, and I felt valued, the resources and services that are available now were not part of the training that I had. And I’m always telling postdocs how I wish that the programming that we provide and the other institutions and organizations provide was available to me during my time as a postdoc, especially when you think about career and professional development. And I also think that the career opportunities available to postdocs have increased and broaden since my time as a postdoc. And one other important component that definitely did not exist during my time as a postdoc and that is support for mental health and wellness. And we all know how important that is now more than ever.

PETER: Absolutely. The pandemic has taught us well.

OLAYA: Now that you mentioned all these activities that you now know are available to postdocs because you either organize them or you see other institutions organizing them. Could you elaborate a little bit, what is available for postdocs to do outside of their labs?

ERICKA: Definitely. I, how much time do we have [PETER: <laugh>] cause I could talk about that all day [OLAYA: <laugh>], but I would say we offer everything from the academic bootcamp to meditation. And in terms of career and professional development, I think one of our most popular activities would be the academic bootcamp. And this is a series of workshops and lectures, and it covers really everything that an individual needs to prepare their academic job application. And another important program that we offer and I’m sure many postdocs are familiar with this and if they’re not, they should be, and that is the individual development plan program, better known as the IDP. And this is really a, you know, a fundamental program that covers topics such as career management, career exploration, career path selection, networking, goal setting, and then developing that individual development plan. Another popular and fun program is our MBTI where our postdocs to learn about personality differences, and they can participate in exercises to understand their own preferences and how that can help to inform decisions and help them understand the behavior of others. And one other event that has unfortunately been put on hold due to COVID is our annual research symposium. And this showcases 100 judged poster presentations, a career development workshop, we’ve done a networking event, a keynote and an award ceremony. And the symposium was certainly the highlight of the year and we hope to get back to that soon. So, I mean, we’re constantly engaging with postdocs and, you know, as I mentioned earlier, and I think it’s really important to stress this idea of support for mental health and wellness. And when I started in the office nearly six years ago, we weren’t offering any really any type of support for mental health. And for me, this was both a professional and personal interest. And so I had to get something started. And what I really wanted to think about was the person in the postdoc. And since then, we’ve been able to expand our programming. We’ve established a wellness branch of the office, including a wellness director and the wellness branch offers one-on-one coaching for wellness programs, wellness challenges, social events, just to name a few. But an another important component of this wellness branch is that we’ve established connections with the psychiatric department at the hospital and other local service providers, so that we can share these resources with postdocs beyond what our office can offer.

PETER: That sounds amazing.

OLAYA: As someone who has experienced these firs-thand, I have to say they are all amazing. And the team who works with Ericka is really, really good. And I especially appreciated the opportunities for one-on-one interactions, which I think are very important. And I understand from a administrative point of view, they’re really hard to do. You’re currently three, four people and you have 1600 postdocs to deal with. And there’s a lot of offices with even less people working for them. So I have to say that one-on-one content was really, really appreciated.

ERICKA: Well, I, I appreciate those kind words, Olaya, and I really enjoy those one-on-one visits. I wish that I, that we could do more of ‘em because sometimes postdocs just want someone to listen to them. [PETER: Yeah.] And if I can’t help them, I know, usually, I know someone at the university that can. And I really value the connections that we have and the information and the liaison position that we can provide to help postdocs navigate their time at Columbia.

PETER: So, Ericka, I’m curious, you’ve mentioned a lot of fantastic resources and tools that postdocs can take advantage of at Columbia. And it sounds like it would be a full-time job to be able to participate in all of those and really take full advantage of them. So how do you recommend to a postdoc, how they should best kind of distribute their time and how they can balance both work, life and all of these other opportunities?

ERICKA: Well, there’s certainly a workshop for time management [PETER: <laugh>] if you’d like to sign up for that. But I think it’s important for postdocs to evaluate what their needs are and that’s why we’re always, you know, talking to them, we’re listening and understanding their needs. We’re recognizing how the landscape is changing. We’re meeting them where they are, and needs change. What if for first year postdoc needs is different from what someone might need at the end of their third year. And we’re also talking with CUPS, that’s the Columbia University Postdoc Society, to find out what postdocs need, you know, they’re sort of on the ground people. And we collaborate with them on a variety of initiatives. But I think postdocs need to understand, you know, where they are in their career path, what types of skills that they need to develop. And through that, they can basically go through our programming and decide which programs make sense at what part of their career, at what point in their career.

And also they can come and talk to us. I mean, we obviously know what’s coming, what we’re planning, what’s not happening again. What is happening again? We’ve done a lot of recording of our workshops. We’ve offered a lot of virtually, allowing postdocs to, you know, not necessarily leave the lab or their department, their office to go to programming. And we also try to do a lot of programming in the evenings to accommodate those types of schedules, but really we’re happy to sit down with them and talk about what it is they need and how we can best meet their needs.

PETER: I love it.

OLAYA: And are there any efforts to sort of make the PIs more receptive to all this type of additional programming that is part of the training?

ERICKA: Yes. You know, we have seen over the past few years a change in direction, let’s say, maybe not such a big change, but we’re definitely moving towards the idea of incorporating career professional development conversations into the postdoc time and training. And actually because of the Union, that most postdocs are now a part of, that is an integral part of the contract that if they want to have these professional development and career conversations, that is something that the PI has to have with them. But I also think through the pandemic, this has been one of, sort of the, the blessings that has come out of this pandemic is that postdocs have had more flexibility and they’ve been able to attend more of our events virtually and make more time for professional development. And I think that is giving them courage to have those conversations and to talk with their PIs about spending more time focusing on career and professional development. And, you know, we always talk about ways to try to increase time or find time to really examine your career professional development needs and path. And, you know, it could be during your commute, it could be setting aside a couple hours each week, blocking out your calendar and taking time, really making an effort to have those types of conversations or to participate in events and programming that we offer.

PETER: That is all fantastic advice. And I’m sure listeners appreciate that. And you’ve, you touched upon how you clearly have a diverse population of postdocs and especially, a diverse international population. So can you give us an idea of who your postdocs are?

ERICKA: Sure. So as Olaya mentioned, we have around 1600 posts at Columbia and that’s across all disciplines, across all campuses. The majority of them are at our Medical Center and we have at last count approximately 50,000, or excuse me, 50% international postdocs.

PETER: Wow. So just a few. Okay.

ERICKA: <laugh>

OLAYA: <laugh> So do you use those stats on where the postdocs are coming from both at the international level, but also with the US postdocs to sort of tailor the programming to their different needs?

ERICKA: Definitely. As I mentioned earlier, you know, we’re constantly listening and surveying and trying to understand their needs and recognizing how the landscape is changing. And I think as I mentioned, you know, what a first-year postdoc needs is different from what a third-year postdoc might need. And also postdocs who might have spent time at another institution and for international postdocs, you know, we focused on communication, focused on American workplace culture, in the past when we could meet more in person, we’ve done events for international postdocs and their partners and spouses, just to really encourage them to be part of that social network as well, because we all know that if your partner or spouse isn’t happy, it makes things even more difficult for you. [PETER: Mm-hmm <affirmative>]. So really encouraging them. We also, Columbia has a great language program. So if postdocs are struggling with the English language, they’re entitled to courses at the American language program at Columbia, and I’ve really seen a lot of great success come out of that. And we also offer an English language intelligibility course that runs annually. That’s done by Nancy Boblett, and we’ve had a lot of great success with that program as well. So trying to find these little pockets and groups for those especially international postdocs to get the support that they need.

PETER: So, do you have any thoughts on ways that in general, universities or academia can work on diversifying the postdoctoral community? Cuz it sounds like you have a ton of fantastic resources and I’m curious if there are some like blanket ones that you think, academia could start moving towards.

ERICKA: Definitely. So that has certainly been a focus of ours. Ee offer a number of programs and workshops and peer interest groups that focus on DEI. And we’ve also participated in training. A couple that come to mind, Dr. Marcus Lambert, he gave a great presentation on the value of diversity and your role in it workshop. we’ve had Kaheli Dutt who recently left Columbia, I think she’s at Yale now, she did a great presentation on understanding implicit bias in promoting an inclusive work culture. We’ve done programs on micro-aggressions in academia, Brandy Simula we’ve had her come a number of times and she’s coming next week for a program. But one that she did was “Out on the job market: job searching as an LGBTQIA applicant””, which was really interesting for us. That was something we hadn’t done in the past.

we also have collaborated with a group called Inkwell for a writing retreat that was geared for advanced PhD students and postdocs of color and the CUPS, that’s our postdoc society, also runs a DEI journal club, which I know goes, has been going on really well. And in terms of training, the New York Academy of Sciences has offered a cultural awareness workshop that I participated in, and that was navigating diversity in the lab as well as Columbia’s safe zone training. But we also have our UR postdocs group, which really is, you know, the goal is to unite underrepresented postdocs and individuals who support the cause and inclusion and it’s to form a cohesive network so that they can build collaborations and promote awareness and things that, and then we also have our Columbia PostdoQs group, which is an affinity group for LGBTQIA postdocs and allies. And again, this group’s core values are to support, include educate, network and create a safe space for those individuals. And it’s also committed to the core values in promoting these values at Columbia University. Oftentimes we work directly with faculty focused on DEI recruiting and we are currently planning a recruiting weekend for fall of 2022. Lots going on in that area.

PETER: Yeah, just a little.

OLAYA: Yeah. Cause definitely you are doing a lot of things on the ground for the people that are already there, but there definitely needs to also be effort on the bringing the new people in. And I understand that PIs still have a lot of say in who they hire and how they hire, but I really appreciate that you guys are sort of guiding them and doing events for that sort of like first line of bringing postdocs in, which can be a little sort of like inner circle. Sometimes you have to know someone who knew someone who was in that lab and then you suddenly get an interview and there was really not a search process.

ERICKA: Right.

OLAYA: So I, I like the idea of sort of recruiting it events, cuz it definitely opens up the market for people who might not have those connections in the first place.

ERICKA: But we also talk to a number of postdocs who are considering coming to Columbia before they’ve made a decision, I’ll sit down with them or chat with them and talk to them about our offerings and the support in our affinity groups and different things like that. So they know that there is a safe space for them or a welcoming space for them within our community.

OLAYA: Do you get a lot of people reaching out before they accept an offer?

ERICKA: Typically? Well they’ll be refer to us through the PI and say that, you know, I’m considering hiring this postdoc. They would like to learn a little bit more about the university and the services that your office offers. Do you have time to chat with them? Cuz the recruiting doesn’t doesn’t go directly through our office.

OLAYA: No, but that’s great. I mean the fact that PIs are thinking about the environment that their postdoc is gonna live in outside of their lab. I think that’s a way we all want go towards so, that’s great news.

ERICKA: Agreed.

PETER: So kind of moving on to our next set of questions sounds like you have an opportunity to at least connect one-on-one with a lot of your postdocs, a or prospective postdocs. And I’m curious what you tell them around like why they might want to do a postdoc.

ERICKA: I think that there’s value of a postdoc career in academia or outside. I think that a postdoc is an added value, you know, when you pursue any nearly any career, whether in academia or outside, I think that postdocs gain a tremendous number of skills, a skill set. And what we try to do is to help them understand and translate those skills to be applicable to a variety of career sectors. I mean, some things that come to mind that are applicable across the board is this idea of gaining independence or critical thinking skills, decision making skills, time management. I mean, all of those things are applicable in any career sector.

OLAYA: And so to the ones that actually come to you and ask for advice, do you encourage them to really explore all these other competencies? And I’m thinking, for example, in the NPAs Core Competencies, I know you really take them into account for your programming. Do you specifically emphasize this to postdocs? That these other things that they’re getting out of their postdoc are actually really important and could open up a lot of options for them?

ERICKA: Yes, definitely. And I think that’s something that we tried in fill in them from the very beginning. Like this is the idea of becoming a well-rounded, not even not just a well-rounded trainee, but a well-rounded individual back to that idea of the person and the postdoc and thinking about some of these skills that are necessary and that postdocs might need a little bit more support on or need to build upon. And we try to create curriculum around those core competencies from the NPA and then build upon that. But I think that when you look at those core competencies, they really support not only that the trainee, but also the person in the postoc and they value that as well.

OLAYA: Do you have a favorite one <laugh> that you really like to like organize things for?

ERICKA: Well, I mean, I think some of them are, are just natural they’re given, right? Discipline specific knowledge, I think is the first one. And in research skill development, I mean, those are integral parts of your training to be a successful trainee, to be further along that path of independence. But you know, some of the other ones like communication skills, I worked in medical communications and pharmaceutical and marketing and advertising before I came back to academia and I learned the value of good communication, whether that’s delivering an elevator pitch or, you know, we’ve brought in the Alan Alda Center for Communicating Science. We’ve had the Center for Teaching and Learning give a teaching course for postdocs, that’s something that we do regularly. So I think that that core competency is really important. And often I see postdocs struggling with communication. Another one that I think is really important is the idea of professionalism.

And I’m not sure that everyone understands that to begin with, but I feel like that’s an integral part of the work that we all do you in the university as a whole. And we need to remind ourselves in any institution that we are indeed representatives of that institution and that we should behave that way. And then of course the responsible conduct of research just goes without saying how important this is. And we’ve been able to partner with the Office of Research Compliance and Training. I think we have a five part series now that focuses on things like conflict of interest science and security, ethics issues on race and research, ethics and compliance, mentoring, and mentorship. Just a really great collaboration and a really important component of the training.

OLAYA: Yeah, no, there’s definitely a lot of things you can do to enrich your experience and I cannot shut up about encouraging people to actually do all of these. [ERICKA and PETER: <laugh>] So going back to the, a postdoc might be useful for a career either in academia or outside. One of the things you hear a lot, maybe a fair amount, is that doing even a PhD, but sometimes sort of spending time after your PhD doing a postdoc and then choosing to still leave academia might set you back economically versus your peers who chose to jump directly to that career. Do you have anything to say about that, is it like as important as people make it to be and what would be the payoff of actually doing the postdoc?

ERICKA: Right. I think that’s a good point. I’ve certainly come in contact with postdocs who have been postdocs too long because they just don’t know what to do next. And I think that once you become so comfortable in a certain situation, it is difficult to branch out and try something new. But I think the idea of doing a postdoc is also very discipline-specific, right? There are some disciplines that a short postdoc is fine or no postdoc is perfectly acceptable. But I think we all agree in really a universal agreement that five years should be the maximum time spent as a postdoc. But I also think the exposure to these different career sectors is important. You know, as I mentioned before, when I was a postdoc, I had no idea that some of these career sectors existed. After I finished my postdoc I actually went into medical writing and communication. I didn’t even know that existed. I thought that it was just something done internally. I didn’t know that those positions were available, but I think this idea of exploring that is so much more important now and so much more accepted and that postdocs are realizing, yes, I will gain more experience. I, this training is a value added experience and I can take what I’ve learned here and move into different career sectors or stay within academia. But there are, they are gaining valuable skills as a postdoc.

PETER: Mm-hmm <affirmative> absolutely, I do think there is that value added component that can be, I think, challenging to see when you’re starting a postdoc and you’re like, I have five years of this before I can move on to whatever is next. But I do think that that is part of one of the major gains from a postdoc is that value added.

OLAYA: So speaking of timings, you sort of put the hard stop on five years. I agree with that. <laugh> I decided to quit mine after three, so I could not agree more with you, but regarding the start time, do you think, I mean, most people I’ve met have done a postdoc right after their PhD or done several postdocs in a row and then at the time I met them here, they came from another postdoc. But sort of like with little interruptions in the academic research track. Do you think that’s sort of, one: the most common track? And would you recommend that? Or would you encourage people to also think of doing a postdoc, even if they’ve jumped out of the academic world for a while and they might be re reconsidering their career at this point? So…

ERICKA: Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, I think definitely that the standard is starting right after you complete your terminal degree. I think that’s the usual way that postdocs start their postdoc time. But I’ve had postdocs who took some time to explore perhaps other disciplines or took time off perhaps to get an MBA or something like that and then come back to the postdoc period. But I really think the standard is to start after the terminal degree. But I’ve definitely seen it with postdocs who change disciplines.

PETER: Yeah. I think that’s a really interesting kind of difference when it comes to grad school and other levels of schooling, like a gap year between high school and undergrad might not be uncommon, same with undergrad to grad school. However, I feel it’s much less common to do a gap from grad school to postdoc.

ERICKA: Agree, agree. But I also think too, you know, if you can explain the reasoning behind your choices, I think that says a lot, you know, taking ownership of your career and your career path and being able to explain, yes, I took time off to do X, Y, Z, and this was the benefit of that. And I’ve learned, or I’ve grown, or I’ve realized that I wanna come back to the postdoc training period.

OLAYA: And that sort of theme is something that, we’ve touched upon on the podcast before sort of like having agency and taking these decisions very seriously and not just like jumping on the postdoc bandwagon, just because it’s the next step. So sort of doing that reflection step at every moment of your career is quite important. [ERICKA: Mm-hmm <affirmative>] And so say we have convinced people that a postdoc is the way to go. That’s what they wanna do. Now you have to choose where you’re gonna do your postdoc. What do you think people should consider when choosing where they’re doing a postdoc, both at the level of the lab and at the level of the institution?

ERICKA: Right. Well, I think there’s a lot of factors that play in into that decision and certainly feeling comfortable in a lab is one thing, but also challenging yourself and gaining independence and not necessarily being under the thumb of your PI or your PI’s friend, I think is really important. Now, I mean, in certain circumstances, there’s really nothing wrong with that, but you really wanna make sure that within those types of circumstances, that you’re gaining the independence that you need, to move on in your career path. But I think now, you know, postdocs, and I think people in general are starting to consider a lot more when making these types of decisions where they wanna live. Do they have a family? Do they have a partner or spouse? Are they doing the type of work that really motivates them? And that they’re passionate about? Is there a balance or an opportunity to be teaching at the same time? You know, coming to New York is quite an experience and assimilating not only to Columbia, but to New York City and potentially to this country can be a really challenging experience. And I think thinking of all those factors that contribute to the experience and how you feel about that is really important component of your decision-making. And I think it’s also really important to get to know the type of lab that you’re joining. You know, I think postdocs should spend more time getting to know their potential PI as much as possible, you know, reaching out to current or past members of the lab, arranging a visit if you can, really taking time to underst and the expectations in the lab culture before signing on. I mean, of course you can’t really have a full picture until you’re actually in the lab, but I think doing some research in advance can really help inform your decision.

PETER: I think that’s really great advice. I’m curious when in one’s graduate career, should they definitely start looking for a postdoc if that’s the route that they wanna take.

ERICKA: In my experience, postdocs are getting their position, I would say on average, about nine months out from finishing. [PETER: Hmm.] But I think also the pandemic has caused some barriers to postdocs in a number of ways. And so I think, you know, there’s been a lot of hiring freezes across the board, I think reaching out sooner rather than later, but I mean, just like during your postdoc time, during your graduate student time, you should be networking. You should be building your network. You should be reaching out to people. You should be attending conferences if you can, you know, you should be getting to know your field and really thinking about what is the next step. If you’re, if you’re pursuing a postdoc, what is the next step for me? Where is the best fit for me?

PETER: Excellent questions across the board. I love it.

OLAYA: Again. Yeah. Just thinking really hard about what you value, in all aspects of your life. And that’s again, definitely talking to the postdocs in the other episodes I’m really glad to see that people are actually thinking about those and that a lot of PIs are very receptive to those questions. So it is great that the sort of environment is changing with the times.

ERICKA: We’ve got a long way to go, but I think we’re making progress.

OLAYA: Yeah, yeah.

PETER: <laugh> Baby steps.

OLAYA: So to wrap up, do you have a final thought on the postdoc value, the experience? What would you want people to go away with about the postdoc?

ERICKA: I think that that’s an excellent question and I don’t have anything really profound to say, but it’s just to think about, as I mentioned before, and I keep going back to this really not just your time as a traineein terms of developing these skills in the lab or within your department, these scholarly skills, research skills, but also what is the benefit in terms of improving, you know, or building upon your skills as a person? And, you know, we touched on a lot of those human or interpersonal skills, and I think that postdocs should find a place where that is valued and that they can build on those skills. As we know that those skills are, will be useful within any career sector that they choose to pursue. And also to find a setting in, within academia that is supportive of their needs and a place that they feel like they can be themselves, I think is really important. And again, focusing on mental health and really taking time for postdocs, taking time out from their day to day, time in the lab or time in the office, time writing, time at the bench to support them in terms of their mental health and wellness, I think is really important. And, you know, if you wanna be a good postdoc, you have to take care of yourself.

PETER: Absolutely.

OLAYA: That’s a beautiful thought to end with. [PETER: Yes.] Thank you so much, Ericka. It’s been a pleasure as always. Keep up all the good programming and hopefully also some other offices who might not be doing as much, we’ll start doing all these beautiful things for postdocs. Postdocs will actually do them [PETER: <laugh>] and everyone will have a better experience.

ERICKA: Well, thank you both. I appreciate the kind words and, and it really is a rewarding career. If anybody’s thinking of a career in administration, academic administration. I really, it’s been a very, it’s been a wonderful experience for me and I really value the work that we do. And I value the postdocs’ time and it’s really been a great experience and if anyone would like to reach out I’m happy to chat.

PETER: Well, thank you so much, this has been a fantastic conversation.

ERICKA: Well thank you for the invitation, and nice to chat out with both of you and enjoy the holidays.

OLAYA: Hearing Ericka reminds me of how much fun I had at the postdoc society and why I want to keep working to improve and expand postdoc career development. There’s so much to do, and you have to look for it, but there there’s a ton of opportunity out there. And I hope that that transpired with what Ericka told us. There’s still a lot to do. We need to normalize career exploration and development during postdoc training, but hopefully this conversation is giving you hope.

PETER: Absolutely. It’s definitely given me some hope as someone who is currently working in a postdoc office, I have to echo all that Ericka said. There are so many opportunities at a university and the surrounding community that postdocs can take advantage of. You just have to, you just have to look for them. So it really does come down to keeping an eye out for those opportunities, having conversations with your PI about needing time to work on your actual career planning, professional development, mental health, or whatever is a priority for you at that time, just start those conversations. You’ve heard from a lot of people in these past five episodes. So hopefully you’ve picked up a few tips and tricks on how to start those conversations. I know I’ve picked up on a few.

OLAYA: Yeah. And please tell us what you learned and what you are still hoping to learn if we didn’t answer all your questions. Remember that we’re gonna have a final episode in a couple of weeks. We’re gonna take a little break so that we can gather all those awesome comments from you and incorporate them into our discussion that Peter and I are gonna have. Please, please, please, please email us phindinganswers@gmail.com. You know how to spell it now: P-H-I-N-D-I-N-G. And we will include them in our final episode where we hope to sort of aggregate this massive amount of information that we have received from our five awesome five-star guests.

PETER: Yes.

OLAYA: While you wait, please find our episodes at our website phindinganswers.github.io. The link is on our Twitter @phindinganswers everything with a P-H-I-N-D or wherever you listen to your podcasts, we’ll be back in a couple of weeks with our final discussion and closure of this mini-series. We hope you have enjoyed our conversations and stay tuned for that final episode.

PETER: Goodbye, answer seekers!

OLAYA: Bye, bye!

[MUSIC: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]