PhinDing Answers

Ep 6 - All the answers! transcript

[JINGLE: What, who, why, when, where? This is PhinDing Answers.

Music: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]

OLAYA & PETER: Hello answers seekers.

OLAYA: After our hiatus, we are back for National Postdoc Appreciation Week (NPAW), a national celebration to make postdocs visible and appreciated.

PETER: Yes we are. And Eliah, since it’s been a moment, why don’t we introduce ourselves and how about you go first?

OLAYA: Sure. Thank you, Peter. It’s good hearing your voice again. I almost forgot. So hello. My name is Olaya Fernández Gayol. I used to be a postdoc not a postdoc anymore. I now work at bioRxiv and medRxiv, which are preprint servers. So kind of the science communication movement. I used to do neuroscience research when I was a postdoc at Columbia for three years. Before that I did my PhD in neuroscience in Spain. I worked withobesity models and... I like musicals.

PETER: Do you play with fat rats?

OLAYA: No. I actually had little fat mice that my friend who did research with me used to say that when you feed mice a high five diet, they turned very posh and self-conscious and they start doing their hair. Oh, because you , you get this like mohawks from the fat that are very, very cute.

PETER: Adorable.

OLAYA: But they were little balls of fur. Really, really cute. What do you do, Peter?

PETER: So, yes, my name is Peter Myers and I am the Program Manager for the Office of Postdoctoral Affairs at Washington University. And I’m just here to advocate for postdocs, talk to anyone who’s interested in doing a postdoc and generally just have fun

OLAYA: And we do have fun, but we also talk serious business.

PETER: Very serious.

OLAYA: So yeah, we’re back and we’re celebrating the amazingness of postdocs. And in case you missed it, we had five awesome conversations with current and past postdocs and a postdoc administrator. So before we go into today’s conversation, which is gonna be about the themes that came up in those conversations, we wanna give a huge shout out to all of them, cuz they dedicated their time and their thoughts and we´re extremely grateful to them. So they are Dr. Kaela Singleton, Upasana Roy, Serena Tucci, Jenny Bratburd and Erica Peterson. If you haven’t yet listened to all the episodes, what are you waiting for? They’re chuck full of good advice and valuable insights. So maybe before you listen to this episode, go give those listen so that you know all the topics that we’re gonna discuss today and then come back!

PETER: So today our goal is to summarize some of the themes that came up in our conversations and to maybe add a few of our own insights into the topics. Olaya, why don’t you tell us what the first general topic is?

OLAYA: So I would call this sort of the greatness of the postdoc and by greatness, I mean in size.

PETER: The vastness_

OLAYA: The vastness of the postdoc and sort of slash lifestyle, because one of the things that our guests mentioned and that we know from experience is that a postdoc will affect your whole life. You will become a postdoc, the lab will become your second home and you might know this from your PhD, but this is another huge life decision that you’re taking if you decide to do a postdoc and there are more things than the obvious, “oh, but like which lab am I gonna go to?” that you should think about and that we discussed with our guests.

PETER: Absolutely. I fully agree with that. A postdoc is kind of a lifestyle change and it’s definitely something that can feel overwhelming at times. However, if you are very intentional about how you set up your postdoc, about where you do your postdoc, about who you do your postdoc with, then I think a postdoc can be a fantastic opportunity for you to develop your professional skills for whatever your next career is.

OLAYA: True that, true that. But sort of on that note, one thing that we discussed, cuz we talked to people who have done a postdoc, so everyone chose that. They’re not tied in to like “I am a postdoc and this is my whole identity and therefore I must stay in academia forever”. So in that sense, like sometimes a postdoc can feel like an automatic thing that you do after you did your PhD, and from our conversations, it doesn’t necessarily have to be that. I mean, we obviously made the choice of doing a postdoc back in the day and I have to say, I don’t regret it. Overall I think it really served me professionally, even though I’m not in academic research anymore, but it gave me the time to figure out a lot of things. I found activities outside of the lab that I really enjoy doing: service to the postdoc community, organizing events, working on my own and other people’s career development.

OLAYA: And I wouldn’t have seen that, if I hadn’t been in the environment where I was. But I have to admit that when I went into the postdoc, I had no idea that any of that was even a possibility. So it, for me at the beginning it did feel a little bit like the default, like what else are you gonna do? So it was a safe bet in my case. It didn’t pay very well, but [PETER: ], it did cover the bills and it gave me the opportunity to come to the US and be in a city like New York, which also offers a lot of other things outside of what I was doing as a postdoc. So it did give me the time to figure a lot of things out. And I also learned a lot of, sort of more lab-related skills. I exploded, you could say, in my coding interest and ability. So I think I took advantage of my postdoc.

PETER: I definitely thought you were going to say that you exploded a mouse because you made it too fat.

OLAYA:

No Peter, we're trying to keep it PG here. PETER: I was just checking, wasn't sure. OLAYA: I have to say I have never exploded a mouse. PETER: Very proud of you. I don't know how many people can say that, but I think you bring up a good point that a lot of times, especially in our current academic environment, a postdoc can feel like that default, like went to grad school next step, get that postdoc, next step, find a new job and that's, that's fine. If that's how you want to approach your career path. That's definitely a very viable one. However, it doesn't have to be the only one. And I think that's part of the reason that we're having these conversations is to acknowledge that like it is a viable path to do a postdoc. It is not the only one. And there are many other ways that said I also did a postdoc. I had sworn that I wouldn't do a postdoc. Now.... OLAYA: Oh. Before? PETER: Yeah. So... OLAYA: Oh, tell me more! PETER: I told my, during my interview for grad school, I was like, yes, I'm excited about doing a postdoc. It seems like a great opportunity for one to really explore their own research and to develop their own ideas. Who knows if that helped me get into grad school? But whatever I got in. And then after probably a year, I was like, I don't think I wanna do a postdoc. There are so many other things that I'm learning that you can do with a PhD with the kind of degree that I had in movement science that maybe I wanna go into that industry route. And then life happens and I met my partner and I was like, well, I don't have a job. I have defended my dissertation and I don't know what I'm going to do. And I was offered a postdoc and thankfully it was with a former mentor. And so I accepted. I was like, yes, let's do it. Here are the things that I need. And we are very clear that like, I wasn't necessarily gonna go the PI route. Are you okay with that? Because I lost one job interview or I guess I threw one job interview because I was asked, so Peter, what do you wanna do after your postdoc? To which I said probably something in industry. Maybe the nonprofit space... OLAYA: #Honesty. PETER: Yes. And you know, I'm glad I said it. OLAYA: It wasn't the lab enough for you, Peter. Yeah. It wasn't the lab for you. PETER: It was a great opportunity to learn neuro imaging, but I decided, oh no, you wanted me to be a PI. No, that's not happening. OLAYA: Which is really funny. We like this came up. I think it was with Kaela. People want to have mini-mes. [PETER: Yep.] Like PIs. And I just, I can't understand, but it is really important as you're saying to like communicate that intention, if that's something that you're clear about and you don't have to, before you start your postdoc. But if you do know, just say it, cuz like it, at the moment where you get the rejection, I'm sure that felt hard. And it is a rejection after all, but in the long term you don't wanna be in a group where your intentions are not alligned, and goals, are not aligned with the vision of the PI. PETER: Absolutely. OLAYA: So I applaud you Peter, cuz you did very well. PETER: Why thank you. Yeah, it was, it was definitely a blow to my ego when I was, when I gave that answer, I was like, this is the honest answer. So here we go. And the PI said, well, Peter, most people would say that they wanna go into academia with that question. And I was like, well cool. [OLAYA: ] I don't I'm sorry. OLAYA: Well, I ain't most people. PETER: . So that went, well, definitely an ego blow, but you know, here I am now and I am happy. So, can't complain. OLAYA: Yeah. And your career has had a number of, of let's say interesting turns. Yeah. Yeah. You did talk about that a little bit in the intro episode, but it was a little fast. [PETER: Hmm.] So do you have any of those like transitions that you think like you weren't expecting and like they actually turned out to be great. Or like, can you extract any life lessons that could apply to someone deciding like either whether to do a postdoc or after they've done their postdoc, it's like, oh, I wanna change careers. And I'm feeling a little bit concerned about it. As someone who has veered from yoga instructor to postoc administrator, what do you have to say about that? PETER: I would say that if you're ever at that crossroads or you think you're at a crossroads and you're trying to figure out what's next, then make what I call your intro slide. So if you were going to introduce yourself to a class of new and excited graduate students and you wanted to tell them how you got to wherever you currently are. Make an intro slide and see like, well, why did I make the decision to take this step? What was it that I was excited about. When I made this other transition, what was it that pushed me in that direction? So for me, for example, I took a postdoc because definitely needed an income, was able to do the work that my PI needed, had an existing and fantastic relationship with the PI already. And a good understanding that I wasn't going to go into academia, except I'm still in academia. OLAYA: Tangentially... PETER: Tangentially... OLAYA: I'm also technically affiliated with a non-profit research institution. PETER: There you go. But then when I was thinking about like, what was next after the postdoc, I just sat down and I was like, what is it that I've been doing with this postdoc, what have I been enjoying? And I realized that my involvement with the postdoc society was integral to my remaining at that postdoctoral position. And I really liked making programs, whether that was a coding program or developing an imposter workshop series or imposter syndrome workshop series. It was that I really enjoyed writing an analysis, but didn't necessarily need to like continue to do 17 iterations of that analysis. I was happy to say [OLAYA: or more] Right. I was happy to say, okay, someone else can perfect this, but here's a fantastic foundation for you. And so it pushed me to be like, well, what if I create programs for postdocs that don't have to be perfect, but are at least resources for them to be able to do their own career exploration. And that's, that's how I got to my current position. OLAYA: Nice, nice, nice. I think that's great advice. I love the idea of the intro slide. PETER: It's really fun. OLAYA: And I think this can, it can be done at any point in your career. It's gonna, it's great to like take that step back [PETER: mm-hmm ] reflect and see the big picture and also maybe seeing where you've been can help you figure out where you wanna go. PETER: Exactly. OLAYA: So I think, I think that's great. So to wrap up this first block of content, I would like to bring up another issue with like the postdoc will sort of take over your whole life, which is for people who have other people in their life, like you mentioned having a partner, it also came up during the discussions, people who have children. [PETER: Mm.] It can be really hard to juggle everything. And I don't personally have children, but I saw the sort of programming that was catered for parents who are also postdocs. And I was just overwhelmed by the thought of having to deal with children and everything that comes with it on top of everything I already knew I had to deal with. It is something to be really mindful of when you're deciding whether to do a postdoc or not. All those other people in your life are also gonna be doing a postdoc. PETER: . Yes. OLAYA: So I think this is sort of related to the issue you were saying about communicating with whoever's gonna be your PI, about your needs and goals. Cause it's not only you, it's also all those other people that are in your life that you're caring for. And I think your PI needs to be aware that as a person, you have other things outside of the lab that can impact your performance either in a good way or a bad way, but a postoc is a person. And I feel like sometimes PIs are not fully aware of that. PETER: Yes. And one thing to know is that this year's national postdoc appreciation week, the theme is around finding your balance and about [OLAYA: mm-hmm, ] acknowledging that you are a whole person who has multiple aspects and multiple things that you're juggling at any given time and what are ways to balance all of those, or at least try to balance them. And even if you feel you don't have those other people in your lives, who would be doing a postdoc with you, it's always good to start the process of having clear communication with your PI at the start. So that if you have someone come into your life, if all of a sudden you adopt five kids (not recommended), then you or already have that foundation with your PI and you have that comfort to say "hi, I just adopted five kids", how can we better work out a schedule for me? So I can complete my postdoc work as well as make sure I'm there for the five kids. OLAYA: And I think that's a very nice segway to our next set of topics, which is, there are a lot of resources available to postdocs [PETER: Tons.] And now, like the thing that we're mentioning about balance and mental health, this is coming to like the forefront of a lot of institutions and postdoc offices are really pushing workshops and activities and a lot of resources related to mental health. Cuz I feel like there's been a sort of reckoning that postdocs actually struggle and academia can sometimes be a very toxic environment and having resources to deal with that and also fix it cuz [PETER: mm-hmm ] you, the, the issue needs to be eradicated. But in the meantime we need to acknowledge that a lot of the things that a postoc is having to deal with can be really hard. So what was your impression as a postdoc of the resources available to you? PETER: So I did my postdoc at the same institution that I did my graduate work during the... Sometime during my grad career, I was in a relationship and then had a horrendous breakup. And thankfully my university had mental health services for graduate students. And so I was able to see a counselor and talk out all of my emotions. Great. I become a postdoc. I had to leave that counselor and I had to leave. [OLAYA: Oh no.] Yeah, yeah. And the, because now I was an employee of the university, all of my insurance changed. And like, you are welcome to continue to go to counseling. You just have to find someone else. OLAYA: Oh, not even like a copay or anything? PETER: No, because it was, the service was offered through the student health or something. Yeah. [OLAYA: Oh] Yeah, exactly. So not great mental health resources, at least at my institution when I was a postdoc. However, as I mentioned earlier, I got highly involved with the postdoc society, for unknown reasons, I don't know how it happened, but just did I signed something. I was like, oh cool. I'm part of this group now. Woo party. OLAYA: Yeah. If it was anything like my experience, I went once and then was very, very heavily recruited. PETER: Yep. Exa... It was great [OLAYA:] but through the postdoc society, I was able to learn about the different resources and the postdoc society was, and still is very well connected with the office of postdoctoral affairs. And so whenever I had questions, I was able to go to the director at the time and say "Hey, need help with this. Are there resources?" And she either had them at her fingertips or was like, go look over here. So there were definitely many resources and at the university, there's no way you can experience all of 'em and take advantage of all of 'em because you won't know all of the resources that are available to you, but they're definitely there. And I encourage anyone to look for them, whether it's a writing center, a teaching center, a career development center, maybe it's a graduate education center that caters to postdocs. Maybe it's just a student group. So the resources are there. You just have to look for them. That's my experience with these. What about you Olaya? OLAYA: So I was at Columbia University in New York and there were offerings, a lot of them, both from the office of postdoctoral affairs and the post society, that I was a part of. But I do think you made a really good point that there are a lot of resources and you can't get to all of the. But I think what you need to do is contact one of these groups that already sort of filters for you a lot of these things and curates and then find what interests you, and then maybe focus on that because yeah, it, you can't go to all the workshops and also go to all the scientific talks and do all these things because you actually need to work a little bit in the lab. PETER: Do you, do you? OLAYA: Yeah, but it can be overwhelming and knowing a little bit what your big priorities are and prioritizing that is a great, a great thing. I am aware that smaller institutions have less resources for postdocs. So that can be a challenge. That might also be something that should inform your decision of where to do a postdoc. Be aware that places that have less of the postdocs will have less offerings. Cuz like if I don't know how big your university was Peter... PETER: Oh, it's Washington University in St. Louis. OLAYA: Okay. So that means nothing to me. PETER: So it's big enough. It's an R1 school. OLAYA: So in a big enough institution, you were already having issues with services for postdocs. So in a smaller place, I could only assume that it's gonna be worse [PETER: yes.] And so that, that is something to be mindful of. There's still national level resources like the National Postdoctoral Association. So if you don't have local things that cater to you, maybe going global is a way to go. The one caveat and this also came up with different people and sort of navigating your interests and the interests of your PI are the time that you're dedicating to these things that are not purely your work as a postdoc in the lab. PETER: Yes. OLAYA: So as of now, there's no sort of protected, dedicated time that you are allowed to take as a postdoc for all this career development. What was your experience, Peter, with managing the lab versus your postdoc society efforts? PETER: Great question. I felt very strongly that having protected time was part of my post-doctoral experience. And I went for about 15% of my time. That said, I was very fortunate to have a PI who was like, I don't want you here at all hours of the day, so please don't do that. OLAYA: That's very nice. PETER: Yeah, it was fantastic. And so I really stuck to about 45 hours in the lab at any given week and maybe five of those would be given to the postdoc society depending on the needs at the time. OLAYA: You tracked your time way more than I did. PETER: Eh, it's an average who knows if it's actually true. That's my perception of it. At least [OLAYA: ]. But I do think it's important to know that at least from the NIH, they like to say that 10 to 15% of your time is recommended for career development, career exploration, professional development. If you are thinking about doing a postdoc and you get an offer from a PI that you step into that negotiation space and say happy to do this postdoc would really like you to write in this contract that I can have X percentage of time dedicated to my own career and professional development. If they say no, and that is something that's important to you [OLAYA: run], don't go, yes. [OLAYA: ] not, not a great fit because already your expectations and your needs are not being met. And it also tells you a little something about how that PI thinks about your career. OLAYA: Yeah. PETER: But it also gives you a little practice in negotiating and coming to the table with what you need and what you are willing to provide. Because when you go for that academic PI position or you go for that director position of some national lab, you need to come with those negotiation skills and that's [OLAYA: yep] That's something you learn with practice. We can give you all the workshops, but until you practice it... OLAYA: Mm-Hmm, Go to them! PETER: It's hard. Yes. Go to the workshops, learn how to do it. OLAYA: But yeah, I've talked to many, many people and I also definitely felt this myself. And this is part of our good friend, the imposter syndrome, that just being like in the room, when they're getting the offers, they, God, they should be enough, but it's not. , that's only the beginning and there are many, many, many postdoc opportunities. And at one point it my feel like that one opportunity is the only one you're ever gonna have. And you might have things in your whole life that are pressing you to take whatever job is available to you. But it is important as Peter is saying to confront PIs at the very beginning about the time to take, to do career exploration and career development in general, cuz I definitely took a little bit more of like a, not sneaky, but sort of like less communicative approach. OLAYA: And I did, I really did not sort of bend over backwards to go more to the lab. And I kept finding opportunities to get involved with the, with the postdoc society. And if there was a workshop at noon from the office of postdoc affairs, I would just go [PETER: mm-hmm ]. So I feel like I, because and this all came because I did not have the career conversation early on, cuz I was definitely feeling the, oh my goodness, this is like my one opportunity. So at the beginning it wasn't bad, but then there was some bad that came up and most of it was maybe partly my fault because of the lack of communication. But when the other person doesn't wanna hear what you have to say, I feel like sometimes it's a little trickier to stand up for yourself in that direct way. because I was standing up for myself in like the background. like I'm doing these things I don't care what you think, but we hadn't really had the conversation. PETER: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's actually a really great segway into our next section or block around agency. And the fact that you may not feel like you have much agency as someone who's about to graduate or someone who is thinking about doing a second postdoc, but you have a lot of agency, you have a lot of power, you just need to be willing to use it. OLAYA: And learn to value yourself and sort of, I think the thing you were saying with the slide, like take that step back and look at your sort of CV with like fresh eyes and acknowledge that you are a valuable person that can offer a lot. Not only like labor in someone's lab and maybe starting a project or whatever, but that you're bringing other things and you're bringing your whole, your whole self and just own it. PETER: Yes. Ask all of the questions of your PI, ask all of the questions of the other people in the lab to really learn what the space is like, what would it be like to be in that lab 40 hours, 50 hours a week? What does it mean to live in this new city I've never explored before? What does it mean to be a quote unquote graduate of the lab? Like what are the outcomes of the lab? Are people happy? Or if I go on Twitter, are they bad mouthing the PI? Now that they're no longer in that lab. OLAYA: Yeah. And with the questions, it's actually a little, it's a little trickier than it could seem at first sight, cuz you're like, okay, I'll talk to the people in the lab. Some people would not tell you the truth. If you ask general things like, oh, what's the environment like? Or like what do you like about the lab? Those are too general. I feel like you should spend the time thinking about the things that are most important to you as a person and like things that you need, things that you have liked of previous labs that you've been a part of. How do you work best with people?And try to ask very specific questions. PETER: So Olaya why don't you give us three of your favorite questions? Three only three questions. OLAYA: Okay. So one thing I would ask maybe is what are your hours? Do you feel like you have to come like a particular amount of time? Or I would, I would like to get a feeling of what that like time culture is, but yeah, I wouldn't like the way to ask that question, I think would be something like, so tell me, I don't know, your last week, what was your general like experiment layout. And like, if they tell me it's like, oh, so I did all this, this, this and this. And then like I came on like Saturday night at 2:00 AM. It's like, oh, and why was that? Like, what type of experiment is that? And like what was the choice to do that? Because I mean, some people do research that happens at night and you need to do this, but maybe sometimes you don't. OLAYA: So that, that would be one topic that I would now try to probe people in. Another one would be asking them about their goals. Like what are, what are their career goals and what are they doing to get it? And what is the PI doing to help them? And a third one, I guess maybe, and this again might, well actually I have two more for two types of people. So for someone who is maybe more like me and cares about making friends and being in a nice collegial environment, I would ask whether they do things like what are the activities that the lab does together, both in and outside of the lab. And then for the people who are more scientifically and professionally oriented, what's the publication record? What's the authorship policy? Do you help other people in their experiment? If you do, are you on their paper? Things like that. [PETER: Yeah]. And I feel like both direct answers and avoidance can tell you a lot about that lab. PETER: So what you've... So your four questions, even though I said three are, what's a typical week look like in terms of your schedule? What are your career goals and how is being in this postdoc helping you get to whatever that goal is? What are the activities you do inside and outside of the lab as a lab? And what's the publication rate or record? OLAYA: Yeah. Beautiful. You're awesome, Peter [PETER: ] I ranted for like five minutes and you're like, and here's it all tied up with a neat bow [PETER: ] PETER: I think I would add to that asking a question like, and this is a little more direct so some people might not be into this question. How is conflict handled in your lab? OLAYA: Oh yeah. PETER: If they say there's never conflict [OLAYA: oooh, run], to me that is a red flag. OLAYA: PETER: Cause I think also it's important to acknowledge conflict. Isn't bad. It is our emotions that get wrapped into a conflict that can be the real issue. And so if you are going into a lab, that's like, well, when we have disagreements around how to best interpret the data, we do this. Great. That is a form of conflict. And if you have a great way of resolving it, go for it. If it's the PI's always right and you have to [OLAYA: ] you have to massage the data to make sure that the PI likes it, then run. OLAYA: Yeah. PETER: Run. OLAYA: Totally. Great. Great question. PETER: I think another question to ask either the PI or if you think the other postdocs or graduate students in their lab would know this is like, what are the people who have left the lab doing now? [OLAYA: Mm-Hmm ] if they're like, oh, they're all tenure track professors at R1 institutions and you're interested in going into industry, might not be the best environment for you. [OLAYA: Mm-Hmm ] might not. Or if it's like we don't talk about that. New Speaker: OLAYA: We don't talk about Bruno no, no no PETER: But we need to. OLAYA: PETER: But I think just knowing where people go is, is very helpful. [OLAYA: Mm-Hmm yeah.] And then I mean, this is way too broad and you should refine it, but like ask your PI directly. Like, what are your expectations? What are your expectations for me in this position? OLAYA: Mm-Hmm totally. PETER: And there, if it's like, well, I expect you to get your work done. Like, okay. OLAYA: Yeah. What does that mean? That means nothing. PETER: That tells you something. If it's, I expect you to get your work done in a timely fashion while also making sure that you have time for yourself. I like that answer. That means they're like willing to negotiate. Here are the things I need from you. Here are the things that I also want you to be able to do. Fantastic. But if it's get your work done at any cost. No, thank you. OLAYA: Mm-Hmm totally. PETER: Also, I just wanna say not all PIs are terrible. I have had amazing PIs. I have just heard stories of horrifying PIs. OLAYA: Yeah. I've definitely heard really, really scary things. The thing is that it doesn't have to be the worst to be bad for you. PETER: Right. OLAYA: So I think, yeah, all these questions are great. And also sort of in the topic of negotiating, another thing that came up with everyone was that a postdoc doesn't pay a lot. We all know this depending on where you are, it pays even less, some places trick you that it pays more, but then it's a city like New York City where everything is 50 times more expensive. And then it actually doesn't mean that you're making that much. [PETER: Right.] But so negotiation wise, most institutions might not have a lot of wiggle room regarding salary, but you don't lose anything by asking. For example, at Columbia, recently unionized, there is a minimum salary, but the minimum doesn't mean that it's what they need to pay you. So they can technically pay you more than the minimum. [PETER: Mm-Hmm ] many people don't do that. But if you know that that number that they're throwing out is just what they're required to pay you and you can advocate for yourself. And like you like as a sort of more senior person, you might have more leverage to do this, but talk about what you are bringing and why you deserve more than that. And again, like, I mean, it could happen that offers are withdrawn. Like I've heard of one case, not a postdoc, but usually the thing that's gonna happen is that your potential employer is gonna say, no, we can't do that. And then you can assess whether you are willing to take that position for the number that they're offering you. So just one tidbit right there, would also recommend doing some research on the cost of living in the place where you're going. PETER: Go to NerdWallet. They're very good at that. [OLAYA: ] It's also depressing. OLAYA: Yeah. Oh my goodness. PETER: So in order for this not to be a 17 hour episode, Olaya, I am going to ask you, if you were going to the negotiating table for your postdoc again, what would you negotiate for? And then I'll give my thoughts. OLAYA: So I think I would definitely ask for the time to explore career things and do like activities outside and have that very clearly set. And salary wise I think I would at least like, for example, when I came in, I was already a year out of my PhD and I didn't advocate for a one year experience bump in my salary. I came in at postdoc zero or one or whatever they called it, but I was essentially doing post-PhD research, actually for a company in the, in my university's lab. But like, it was a joint project with a company. And I would've made the case that I was not a fresh out of grad school person. And I could bring like coding ability and all this like extra mouse work and projects that were outside of my PhD project, so sort of like branching out and the ability to juggle a couple of projects that were very different. So I think I would do that. I think if I had done that, I would probably not have gone to the lab I ended up in. PETER: Mmm. I think that's, that's good to remember as well. OLAYA: So what about you? What would you do differently? PETER: Well, I think as I've been talking to more perspective postdocs in my position, I always like to give the advice that one definitely negotiate time for that career exploration, that career development, because you are a trainee as a postdoc, so make sure you're getting some training. OLAYA: Mm-Hmm PETER: I also recommend, even though I know that there are thousand different ways to do this, find a way that you and your mentor, your PI can develop an individual development plan or an IDP and revisit that on at least an annual basis. And have that part of an annual review that assuming you're meeting satisfactory goals or whatever, that [OLAYA: mm-hmm ], you will get a raise. OLAYA: Mm-Hmm PETER: Like you were saying Olaya cuz I think at least our institution at WashU we also have that minimum salary requirement. However, you can pay a postdoc, anything you want. We have postdocs who are making way more than I probably ever will, [OLAYA: ] which is a little frustrating, but here we are. So get that career development time, develop an IDP because it's just useful for you. It's kind of a way to start that intro slide, if you will, and then make sure that you're getting an annual review and have that linked to getting a raise. OLAYA: Fun fact. [PETER: Mm.] Do you wanna guess when I had my first IDP meeting with my PI? PETER: Two days before you left. OLAYA: Almost. [PETER: ] Two months. PETER: Wow. Wow. OLAYA: Yeah. Anyway, that's great. And I feel like we both appreciate the value of having that dedicated time and cuz it just makes you feel safe doing all those other things that the NPA considers part of the postdoc. So your PI should too. There PETER: There you go. OLAYA: And yeah, and I love the idea of having a like essentially a contract that delineates what your salary prospects are. Cause like [PETER: mm-hmm, ] like in a regular company, there's some indication as to what your expectations regarding to compensation are gonna be. So why is academia so different? Because like, oh this is not a job. We do this because we love it. PETER: Mm-Hmm it's for the passion. [OLAYA: Yeah.] For the thrill of seeking answers. OLAYA: And we do have that passion and we seek answers and we have found them. So I think to end on a positive note, [PETER: ], we've learned so that we don't discourage everyone from doing a postdoc, if that's what they choose to do. But now they have heard the experiences, they have heard, maybe not answers, but a lot of questions and a lot of thoughts on how to approach doing a postdoc. We hope our conversations have been useful and do share this with everyone in your life who thinks that a postdoc might be the way to go or that is finishing a postdoc and doesn't really know what to do. I feel like we have a lot of opinions and answers about that too. PETER: Many, many opinions and answers [OLAYA: ] well opinions. I don't know if they're right answers, but... OLAYA: So that's a wrap. This is our final episode of this mini series. There might be more content in the future, but we're not making any promises. [PETER: ] In the meantime, you can still send us comments on any of the topic topics we've discussed, experience questions. Our email is [phindinganswers@gmail.com](mailto:phindinganswers@gmail.com). Finding is spelled P-H-I-N-D-I-N-G. And you can also follow us on Twitter and [@phindinganswers](https://twitter.com/phindinganswers) with the same spelling, you can get all our episodes from our website, [phindinganswers.github.io](https://phindinganswers.github.io) (the link is on our Twitter) or wherever you listen to your podcast. We're on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify... we're everywhere. PETER: Everywhere, and Olaya. Where can people find you? OLAYA: Oh, so I'm actually also on Twitter [@olaya_gayol](https://twitter.com/olaya_gayol) (G-A-Y-O-L). And yeah, I don't tweet very much, but [PETER: ] PETER: There you go. OLAYA: I can be reached on the tweets. So what about you, Peter? Do you have Twitter? PETER: I don't have the Twitter, but I do have LinkedIn. You can find me there. It's just Peter Myers, spelled M-Y-E-R-S. I'm currently at WashU so you can filter that way. OLAYA: Yeah, oh, I'm also obviously also on LinkedIn and all the links are on the website. So if you do wanna reach out personally to either of us, the website is the best way to go about it. PETER: Absolutely. And with that, I hope everyone out there who's listening is having, will have, has had a fantastic national postdoctoral appreciation week. OLAYA: Yay. Appreciate the postdocs. [PETER: Yes.] They are valuable people and every week should be postdoc appreciation week. PETER: I love that sentiment and I look forward to finding more answers with you. OLAYA: Me too. Bye bye, everyone. PETER: Au revoir. [*MUSIC: Eggy Toast - Lose your head*]