PhinDing Answers

Ep. 3 — Serena Tucci transcript

[JINGLE: What, who, why, when, where? This is PhinDing Answers.

Music: Eggy Toast - Lose your head]

OLAYA: Hello, answer seekers!

PETER: Hello, answer seekers! We are here already at episode three, somehow. It’s amazing. [OLAYA: How did that happen?] Great question. Wish I knew <laugh> but it is a actually happening. And I feel like once you get to episode three in a podcast, which is in reality, actually the fourth episode in our mini series, we have some good momentum going so Olaya while we have this momentum going, could you tell us who our next conversation is?

OLAYA: We have Serena Tucci a force of nature and a representative of a postdoc who transitioned into an academic research position, and she didn’t get there by wasting time reading and writing long emails, but let her introduce herself.

SERENA: My name is Serena Tucci, I’m an Assistant Professor in the Anthropology department at Yale, and before joining Yale I was a postdoc at Princeton University and before Princeton, I was a postdoc at the University of Washington in Seattle. And I did my my PhD in the university of Ferrara in Italy.

PETER: Yes, those emails are clutch and this was honestly a treat of a conversation. And I’m sure all of you will enjoy it. Remember that this was recorded in the fall of 2021. Should you hear any weird dates in there, but don’t worry about it and just enjoy this fun and amazing conversation we have with Serena.

[MUSIC]

OLAYA: Hello, Serena. I’m so happy to have you here for our conversations around postdoc-ing and all the that we have about it. How are you?

SERENA: I’m great. Thank you for inviting me. I’m really excited.

OLAYA: So you’re currently an Assistant Professor at Yale. When did that start?

SERENA: Yeah, so I started my position at Yale in July, 2020.

OLAYA: Okay. Right in the middle of a pandemic <laugh>

SERENA: Ah, yeah.

PETER: Wow.

OLAYA: Yes, and you were a postdoc right before that, right?

SERENA: Yes. I was at postdoc until June of that year <laugh>.

OLAYA: Wow, nice, nice, fast transition.

PETER: That’s quite the transition.

OLAYA: So your memory should be fresh. What is a postdoc?

SERENA: Yes, very fresh memories. <laugh> So the postdoc is of course the next step after you finish your PhD. It’s a step that you might want to take, especially to continue your research training. And I will also add that a postdoc is also a very good opportunity, a very good, you know, time to think about your future. At least it was, it was that for me, it’s the time that, you know, during which you can evaluate your career path and you can really think about what you want to do in your life, what you want to create for your future. For me, it was very much all about, you know, creating possibilities for my life. For my future.

PETER: I’m curious, now that you’ve been in your position as an assistant professor, are you looking to hire postdocs?

SERENA: Yeah, so I’ve been in this position for a year and a half now. And yes, I definitely hired a postdoc actually soon after I started this position and I’m looking to hire more postdocs. So if you know anybody interested, please let me know. <laugh> we have a lot, we have many opening positions.

PETER: So then now that you have your own postdocs and you’ve been a postdoc, how has that changed your perception of the overall idea of what a postdoc is?

SERENA: Ooh, this is a tough question. You know, I’ve been asking myself this question and the short answer is that I don’t know yet, in some ways I can see how I became very much aware of the fact that people might want different career paths compared to, for example, what I wanted, had it very clear that I wanted to be a PI, that I wanted to build my lab probably since I was five years old. [PETER: Oh wow] So that was, you know, it’s been my dream and it’s a dream that, you know, became true. But I also understand that other people might want different things in life. And my job in this context is actually to be there, to support them, whatever they want, you know, whatever they want to build for them themselves. So again is all about creating possibilities and it’s all about, you know, supporting them, helping them to get what they want. And it could be, you know, a job in academia. It could be a job in industry. It could be completely different thing, whatever makes them happy and they’re, you know, to provide training and mentoring. And I increasingly, I’m increasingly having this conversation with my postdocs.

PETER: I love that that’s a very refreshing take on what a postdoc is or what postdoctoral training can look like. So then, what does a postdoc in your lab, or perhaps in the general sense of the term, if you’d like, what does a postdoc do?

SERENA: <laugh> They work out lot <laugh> We work a lot. So… postdocs in my lab, so they are of course are there to continue their training, their research training. They also get experience, you know, in mentoring students, they contribute to the mentoring and if they want, they can also have some, you know, teaching experiences, which I believe it’s really important. I did teaching my last year at postdoc and it was the most amazing experience for me, when I was at Princeton. And actually when I started teaching at Princeton in the Computational Biology program, I realized how much I loved teaching. It was a very empowering experience for me. And I try to involve my postdocs in this experience because it’s extremely rewarding. You know, the best part of this job is getting to know this student, you know, contributing to their growth. At least it is for me <laugh>.

OLAYA: <laugh> Yeah. And like teaching doesn’t only have to be for people who want to eventually teach, like it will teach you so many other things… like patience.

SERENA: <laugh> Yes. It teaches, you know, it’s an opportunity to learn a lot about yourself. I dunno if you might agree, but I think, you know, PhD can be a very lonely moment of our life. [PETER: Mm-hmm <affirmative>], especially if it doesn’t involve teaching opportunities. So, you know, whenever you have the opportunity of teaching, even you know, it could be a guest lecture, it could be also teaching opportunity. I just encourage everybody to take it because it’s an incredible moment also to learn how to communicate and, you know, communicating about your work about science it’s very important, especially in these times we live now.

PETER: I think that’s a really important point you’re bringing up is that people with PhDs, postdocs in general have a plethora of skills that can be transferred in different directions, as long as there’s guidance around how you could transfer it. How is it that you could use your teaching communication skills to transfer into policy, to help communicate with policy makers. Do you encourage your postdocs to pursue, I guess, opportunities outside of the lab to further develop those skills?

SERENA: Oh yes, absolutely. I’m very happy to discuss these opportunities and then definitely encourage them. The first semester I was teaching, you know, during COVID of course, at the end of the course we organized in collaboration with a group that was very much involved in science communication in the community. And at the end of the semester, my students presented in these communities. So it was a very, you know, rewarding for the students. Like it was really empowering for them to present about these topics to a non-scientific community. So it was like a, their final assignment was all about getting out of the academia.

PETER: It’s a great idea.

OLAYA: Yeah. And it’s, you’re paying it forward, like to your students and then your students to other kids. So I think that’s really cool. So you did a lot of teaching during your postdoc, which obviously came in very handy. Did you do any other sort of extracurricular activities during your postdoc that you have found very useful?

SERENA: Well, during my PhD in Italy, actually, I participated in several events, it’s always about science communication. And I definitely enjoyed that. During my postdoc I actually don’t remember, that’s a good question. Like you mean like activities?

PETER: Hiking, cooking classes…

SERENA: Well, I’m a samba dancer. And I definitely enjoy that. I’m a big lover of bossanova music, Brazilian music in general. So I spend most of my free time, you know, dancing, whatever. You know, I most also a big pizza lover, of course I’m Italian [OLAYA: of course <laugh>]. And I actually, I was the CEO of the New York Population Genetics Pizza Club [OLAYA: <laugh>] or pizza meetup. [PETER: Wow]. So what I did was organizing meetups where postdocs, graduate students and PIs could meet in a very informal context, which was, you know, pizza, pizza place. Very good pizza I should add and, and just find opportunity for networking and getting to know each other. At the time I was based in New York. So it happened twice in New York and it was a big success and I, we really enjoyed. And we still keep in touch with some of the participants. And I hope, you know, we’ll be able to do it again soon.

OLAYA: Now for the most important question. Was it Italian pizza or New York-style pizza?

SERENA: Of course it was Italian. It was Napolitan pizza.

OLAYA: You did say it was good. [PETER and SERENA: <laugh>] No beef against New York pizza. I like my Friday night New York pizza.

SERENA:

PETER: Mm-hmm \ OLAYA: It seems like you had a very fulfilling postdoc and you do sound like a well rounded individual, but could you give us a little bit more detail on who you are? SERENA: Yeah. That the most difficult question. Who I am. Oh my God. Well, as I was saying, I'm from Italy, so I'm an immigrant scientist. I have been in the US for over six years now, I think. And I'm a scientist of course, and that's a very important part of my life because I love science and I always wanted to do this job. So I'm very lucky because I'm doing exactly what I always wanted to do. And it also comes with some challenges cause, you know, this incredible love I have for science it also comes with the challenge that I never feel I'm working. So \... OLAYA: That's dangerous kids. SERENA: It's dangerous. It's very dangerous. I agree. And and I'm very transparent, I'm very honest with my students in my lab and like, you know, I work a lot. I always work a lot because I love it. And of course I get tired and exhausted as everybody, and I don't expect my students, you know, to work on a weekend. We, I set very clear boundaries. Like I don't expect them to answer through the weekend. I don't expect them, you know, to be working all the time. And I tell them, you know, I do it because I love it. I do it because, you know, it's what I enjoy doing. And back to the postdoc, you know, experience, I really enjoyed very single minute of my postdoc. I was very lucky to be working with my PI, you know, with my supervisor at the time. And I think, [OLAYA's cat meows] oh, I'm hearing your cat \. I really, really enjoy the research and the experience in the lab where I did my postdoc and I hope, you know, one day my postdocs will say the same about me. Hopefully \. PETER: I'm sure they will. Now you mentioned that you're a immigrant research scientist. Can you talk a little bit more about how those identities impacted your experience as a postdoc in the US? SERENA: Yeah. Yes. You know, I've been thinking a lot about the challenges we face as immigrant scientists, especially in the past years with COVID and the travel restrictions and you know, how this whole situation affected my category in particular. So I did my PhD in Italy and then I decided to move here. I was very excited about the work, the research being done in the lab, where I ended up doing my postdoc. So that was, you know, the choice I made and of course it, as every choice, when it comes, you know, to moving countries, leaving your country, you also give up many things like you have to, how you say English? It comes with some very difficult choices, of course, leaving your family, and living your life in a complete different culture, in a different... PETER: Mm-hmm. SERENA: And of course it comes with the challenges of building your own community. I have to say, I always felt very supported, you know, during my postdoc, and also right now, you know, as a faculty. Academia is very much international and it's a very supportive place for immigrants. We are very lucky in that sense. Of course, there are challenges. [OLAYA: \ Visas] Visas, it's, you know, the nightmare of visa. Of course, there are many other challenges, come from the fact of not being an English native speaker. So, you know, a lot, there are a lot of efforts that go into writing in a different language. So you know, you have to work very hard. PETER: Absolutely. And it sounds like you had support from your PI when you came to the US, but were you able to find community at your institutions to help you with some of those more like life transitional needs? SERENA: Yes. Yes. I was very lucky in that sense. First of all, because both institutions where I did my postdoc, there was a big international community. And also, you know, my American colleagues were incredibly supportive. And I, you know, I'm still very good friends with most of them. And it was a very, it was an incredible time and we had a very supportive community. And today, you know, my current colleagues as well, we have a lot of international faculty in my department. OLAYA: And on top of the sort of peer community, did you find that there was sufficient institutional support to sort of provide a rich postdoc experience? Was it easy to find that community through sort of university events and that type of thing? SERENA: You know, during my postdoc, I have to say I was not completely aware of this type of, you know, associations. And I really wish I knew at the time, because it would have, you know, contributed to build my community, to help me build my community. You know, I'm really glad for what you're doing for the postdoc community, because there aren't many structure in place to support postdocs and and it's, you know, it's really important, especially for international postdocs, OLAYA: Many institutions do have resources or communities, but sometimes it's hard for individual postdocs to find them. So have you sort of thought about that part of how to bridge that with your current postdocs to sort of prevent them from suffering something like what happened to you? SERENA: So we have put together some welcome information for [OLAYA: Yay!] postdocs, some new postdocs, new lab members, who join the, my lab and also for new students. So we have gathered all kind of information that, you know, they go from how to find an apartment to the best pizza in town [OLAYA and PETER: \] of course, or to, you know, how to use the computing resources. And we continue, you know, to think about kind of the information that we wish we had. I wish I had when I started so that, you know, we continue to collect this kind of information. We also thought about, you know, some kind of welcome package for, you know, new students and new postdocs, actually. So my lab works on ancient DNA from Neanderthals. So my postdoct thought, it would be really cool to have some Neanderthal socks for the new students. [OLAYA: \ Love it.] So yeah, we might do that. I think it's really cool. \, PETER: That's a lot of fun and so relevant to your work. OLAYA: So what does the postdoc community look like in terms of diversity, origins? Are you seeing a shift in the type of people who do a postdoc? SERENA: Mm, I don't know. I think it's a very weird time for in general, you know, for the job market, of course, there are some difficulties in recruiting postdocs from Europe or at least there had been some difficulties in the past two years due to visa issues and so on. So I think we are in a time, you know, things are changing because finally we can travel, you know, the visas are finally becoming less challenging to get. So I don't know how this is going to evolve. PETER: So I wanna circle back to something you said earlier, so you, since the age of five, [SERENA: \] wanted this career, which is phenomenal to me because I'm pretty sure I just wanted to be a tree frog [SERENA: \] when I was five, but I'm curious, was postdoc an automatic for you? Like you knew you wanted this job and you knew that in order to do it, you would do a postdoc. SERENA: Yes. I think it was a very automatic choice. PETER: That I, yes, that, That makes total sense. SERENA: Short answer. OLAYA: \ um, cuz it's obviously sort of in the academic path, if you want to be a PI to have that sort of independent research phase after your PhD. But what were you hoping to get from the postdoc to prepare you for being a PI? SERENA: That's a great question. I think, of course, you know, I decided to do a postdoc because I wanted to continue to do research. And you know, when you are a postdoc the type of responsibilities change, you know, they you're supposed to have increased responsibilities and you're definitely there, you know, to prep, you know, to become a PI. In my case, I think I wanted to also get some experience, again, in teaching was a very important aspect of my postdoc, especially at the end of my postdoc. I was hoping to publish some ongoing projects that I had, you know, I started at the end of my PhD and of course some of them did not work. And you know, you have also to accept that because it's part of the job it's science, you know, some of the projects that you're doing are very likely to not succeed. PETER: Mm-hmm \ SERENA: It, you know, it's part of the game. And I tell that, I tell that to my students all the time, you should always have a project, you know, and also a plan B because if that's not going to work, you want to have plan B and then another, at least another project. And actually this brings up to another very important skill that I learn during my PhD, but especially during my postdoc, which is how to be effective, how to use time in a very effective way, how to multitask. And I took a lot of courses. I read a lot of books and how to, you know, manage your time because, you know, this might sound like a very silly thing, but time is the most precious time, the most precious thing you have and you have to learn how to use it in a very effective way. And now that, you know, I became a PI, I see how it's becoming increasingly challenging, especially like dealing with emails. OLAYA: And for, sorry to interrupt you Serena, for listeners, Serena has a, I wanna say sort of like five-paragraph email signature detailing emailing etiquette, which I love. And I wish more people would sort of not necessarily have on their email signatures, but interiorize and practice. SERENA: You know, this is so funny because I had several people who told me they loved that signature and now they use it. And, but they cite me. [OLAYA: \] Actually, that comes from an article I read, I think it was in Nature about how to manage, you know, emails and I'll just loved it. And so I think, you know, dealing with the communication, dealing with emails, it's very, very challenging because I went from, you know, a few emails I was receiving as a postdoc to hundreds emails sometimes even more that I receive now as a PI. PETER: Absolutely. I think that's a really great point and a really important skill that we as researchers and academics and postdocs need to be able to learn and internalize. And we all know that we have plenty of opportunities to practice that given all the emails, any of us get. So... [OLAYA: \] no excuses. OLAYA: And we'll share the signature on the episode notes so that everyone can take a look. PETER: Tt's really good. I just read it. It's so good. OLAYA: Do you have any sort of less than stellar moments that taught you something as well? SERENA: I dunno if it's, you know, a less moment, but I think I reached the point when I was really tired, like I was really exhausted and that was a, you know, a good moment to think about how to like, to avoid the reaching that point. I remember like when we were very close to submit a paper, I was really, really exhausted and, you know, and that's a very good moment for you to think about how you can, you know, you need to take care of yourself. And I now tell that to my students all the time, like you have to set reasonable and realistic goals and you have to make sure that you take care of yourself and maintain a healthy schedule. Like, you know, there are times when we have very important deadlines that you might be working until six in the morning and that happens, you know, but it cannot happen every day. It can happen, you know, one day or two days in a year, otherwise, you know, it's not possible to maintain a workable schedule. [PETER: Absolutely] And I also have to learn that I have to give the good example. So it's, you know, it goes both sides. You have to tell them, you have to share about the important of their well-being. But you also have to set an example. PETER: I was actually just in a meeting where the facilitator closed the meeting with saying, take care of yourselves, everyone, and remember, no deliverable is worth more than your own health. SERENA: Oh, absolutely. I definitely agree. And I think we need to have more these conversations because, you know, there, there is a lot of pressure in our job and we need to make sure that we have these conversations and share the challenges we face. And we share also when I take a day off, I think it's important to say, Hey, I'm actually taking a day off to take care of me, of myself. I'm, you know, doing something to relax and, you know, I will be back to work tomorrow and that's it. OLAYA: Yeah, don't make excuses. PETER: I think it's absolutely important to be transparent and clear about why you're taking some time for yourself to model that for your trainees, for your postdocs, for your grad students, so that the, we can start maybe changing the culture that I think is very prevalent in academia of publisher or perish. [OLAYA: Mm-hmm \], and you have to burn the candle at both ends if you want to succeed. And that has worked for the people who are successful in academia, but we don't hear the voices of the people who are not in academia anymore because of that culture. OLAYA: Yeah. I mean, it's, survivor's bias, right? You hear that 0.1% who stayed. And there's still a lot of the, oh, if I suffered during my PhD and my postdoc, you have to suffer too, because I worked through it, so why can't you? So it's good to hear that the new generations are sort of changing the narrative and bringing it to the forefront. SERENA: We need the transformation. And I think, you know, this is the time when we really have to think about all the excellent, outstanding scientists. We, you know, lost in academia because of these incredible pressure and, you know, the amazing people who just had to leave because they were under these incredible pressure. And it's not fair. And these conversations, I think they will help building this culture. You can do amazing science, but still maintaining, you know, an healthy, happy life. OLAYA: Mm-hmm \ PETER: Right. And maybe even more amazing science because you're actually functioning at a higher level. SERENA: Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. PETER: So that kind of brings us to our next question around when to do a postdoc. Cuz traditionally you do it pretty much directly out of grad school, but do you think that are there considerations around one's mental health and one's own interest in exploring other careers that might influence that when to do a postdoc? SERENA: That's a great question. So I, again, \ I started my postdoc a week after I graduated. [PETER: Woo]. And, you know, I was more than happy. I was really, really excited to start my postdoc and probably I will, you know, when you finish your PhD, you are like, you run these incredible marathon, you know, you to finish your thesis and it's, you know, it's very stressful time and I will say, you need some, we can call it buffer time. Maybe, you know, sometime that you can take before you start your postdoc, if you have the possibility of doing that, I will certainly recommend it like taking maybe a month. It's also good time to be thinking about, you know, what are your goals? What is the next step? I think that's something that I recommend to do PETER: Yes, because I think as you noted getting that dissertation through the door is a marathon and you are so focused on it. And yet you're also supposed to be thinking at the same time what that next step is. And I think that the pressure and the stress around the dissertation can often lead someone to choose a job that is maybe easier for them to achieve cuz it's there right now, even if it's not necessarily the best fit for them. SERENA: Yeah. I totally agree. And you know, it goes back to what we are talking before. Like it's really a moment for creating possibilities for yourself. And you know, when you, you talk about possibilities, it really opens up to everything you want to do and you want to create for yourself and, you know, discovering that maybe a postdoc is not you, what you want to do is totally fine. This is the time for making choices and exploring and thinking, you know, what's the life you want. And starting immediately a position, it probably doesn't help. PETER: One thing that I don't think we've mentioned in this recording, but I think you mentioned in your intro/bio is that you did two postdocs. SERENA: Mm-hmm \ yes. Technically one however, because... \, OLAYA: Don't fix it now. SERENA: \ So first of all, I think it's important to talk about how you like where to do a postdoc. Like, how do you find, or how you pick up the lab, you know, to do your postdoc? In my case, what happened is that I was reading a paper, a research paper, and I just was amazed by the research that was being done by the person who later became my postdoc supervisor. And I was amazed by the creativity, the high quality of the science. And I basically reached out and expressed my interest. And, you know, later I became a postdoc in that lab. And, at the time my PI was at the University of Washington in the Genome Science department, it was an incredible place to do genomic research. It is incredible place to do genomic research. And I was there for about a year and then the lab, my PI moved to Princeton and he asked me to move to Princeton and continue my postdoc there. SERENA: And I moved, he built a lab at Princeton, and it was a great opportunity. I, I really, really loved my postdoc lab and I, you know, I, sometimes I miss my postdoc lab, you know, it's kind of a time when you don't have to worry about many things that now I have to worry about because I'm kind of a grown up [OLAYA and PETER: \] When you are, you know, you have your own lab, you have the responsibility of, you know, writing grants for, and support your lab and all the stuff that comes with being a PI, which I love. I also love it. I have to say that, but it's a different life. OLAYA: So it was technically the same postdoc, just cross country. SERENA: Technically. Yes. PETER: So how long were you with that PI in total, before you transitioned to your new position? SERENA: So it was overall from 2016 to 2020. PETER: Four years. OLAYA: That's, that's a nice, nice length. When did you start thinking about applying for positions and moving on? SERENA: Yeah, so I applied for positions in, at the end of 2018 and I got this offer from Yale in the spring of 2019. And then I accepted the offer a few months later. And then we were, basically I negotiated that I will continue to finish my postdoc and I was going to start my position in 2020, in summer 2020. And then of course COVID came and we know all the story and of... Yale did an amazing job. They were extremely supportive, they built me a brand new lab, which is beautiful. It's literally the lab of my dreams. You guys would have to come. OLAYA: And every sink is exactly where you want. SERENA: Yes, yes. Every cabinet, every sink, everythin. It's just the dream lab. You guys will have to visit at some point. PETER: We would love to. SERENA: We have pizza \. PETER: Yes! OLAYA: Yes! SERENA: Funny story. We have a pizza endowment fund in my lab. [OLAYA: \] So we, [PETER: oh, that's amazing.] We have, we save money. We save, we have funding for pizza. OLAYA: I'm not judging. I used to have one for baking [SERENA: \]. So you said you started applying in 2018, so that was only two years after you started. Did you do that because you were counting on sort of like the delayed process of joining another institution, or was it that you were just ready to move on at that time? SERENA: No, actually it was for a different reason. A position, a very cool position came out and looking like the perfect fit. And my PI as well, other mentors told me, you know, this is really perfect. This is the perfect job for you. And I applied and I started applying. PETER: Nice. OLAYA: How did you pick your postdoc lab? I mean, you briefly mentioned just reading the science and being amazed. Was that the only deciding factor. Did you and ask more questions during interviews? SERENA: So of course I got to know the PI and you want to know the person you are going to work with and get the feeling of how is the environment in the lab. In my case, you know, I was amazed by the science, but I was also amazed by the mentor, like type, the person. The PI was very committed to the growth of his lab members. So of course the science is very important. The person is of course also very, very important. So you definitely want to get the sense of the environment. PETER: I'm curious. And maybe this is a question for both of you. I think that there's more and more pushes for kind of postdoctoral recruitment events and given what you're saying Serena around like making or that you, you really care about this work of the lab. Do you feel this is going to be an effective recruitment method for postdocs? SERENA: I think so. I think it creates opportunities for interactions not only with a lab where, you know, eventually the postdoc will end up doing postdoc, but also to get the sense of the other labs in that, you know, environment and get the sense of, you know, the community like research opportunities, collaborations, and interactions among labs. I think these are all important pieces of information that you should consider when you make a choice about your postdoc lab. [PETER: Mm-hmm \] You, especially, you know, for a postdoc, it's important to know, you know, there is a postdoc community there, you know, what are the opportunities? What are, are there events, you know, for meeting other postdocs? And things like that. OLAYA: So you said you did not ask a lot of questions, but you are getting a lot of questions from [SERENA: oh yes] prospective candidates. So could you share a top five that you think are actually useful to ask your future PI or the people that you're meeting in these awesome events? SERENA: I'm getting a lot of questions and actually I appreciate that. I really appreciate that because it means that, you know, they know what they want and what they don't want. [OLAYA: Mm-hmm \] So I think, you know, asking questions in sometimes, asking good questions sometimes more important than giving good answers. I like questions about, you know, how to set expectations. Sometimes, you know, we start a PhD, we start a postdoc, we might not have a sense of what are the expectations. And setting clear goals and making expectation clear, it's super important. The same as, you know, getting organized, how to manage your work. All these types of questions are very important. And I share with the, you know, the applicants, all the systems we have in place in my lab to always be organized. We have, you know, weekly action plans. We have all kind of project management softwares, and, you know, resources to be organized. How to, you know, make our work more effective, how to, you know, make sure that everybody's on the same page about projects and things like that. It's really important to be organized. And actually, you know, during these interviews, I ended up, you know, giving all kind of advices, on how to manage at time effectively. And I'm happy to talk about these things. I buy a lot of books for my students [PETER: Mm-hmm \] about time management. I'm really, \ really into that time management and the project management, because we have many projects and if you are not organized, you cannot have 10 ongoing projects. PETER: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that sums up your amazing email signature. SERENA: \ We always go back to that \ OLAYA: Yes. That is the highlight. SERENA: And, you know, it's also okay to have days where, you know, your schedule is completely messed up, you're making a very bad job managing your time. You just have to accept that because, you know, it's not always, everything goes as you want, and that's also part of the game and you just move on, you know, today I missed a meeting. I did not do what I supposed to do. And who knows what else? I don't even know. You just accept that and you move on and you take actions to avoid that happen again. If there is something I really learned during this year, it's important to find ways to empower your team, making sure they know they are part of the community, which is, you know, the lab, which is a supportive community. And that the success of each of them is important for everybody. So they are not, you know, by themself, they are not alone. We are community and we share and we support each other. OLAYA: And I think that's the perfect note to end this conversation, with empowerment, community and support. PETER: 100%. OLAYA: Thank you so much, Serena for talking to us. Where can people find you if they want to learn more of what you're up to? Send you an email? Just kidding. Don't email her. PETER: \ SERENA: Short emails are fine. OLAYA: Where can they actually talk to you? SERENA: Yeah, no, we are at Yale, in the Anthropology department, in our super cool newly established lab. So come to visit us as if you want. We are also, you know, on Twitter, we have a website, which I don't remember right now, but if you Google, you will find me. OLAYA: We will also put it in the episode notes. SERENA: \ And I also have, I actually have a visiting appointment at Columbia in the Biology department. So if you want to grab a coffee, feel free to email me, I'm around. OLAYA: So thank you again, this is a lovely conversation, and it's so great to have someone who has both experiences so fresh in their mind. I'm really happy to hear all the ways you're implementing what you learned as a postdoc to be a great PI. And thank you. SERENA: My pleasure. It was really cool to talk to you. Thank you so much. PETER: Thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation. OLAYA: I always enjoy talking to Serena. It's encouraging to hear a current PI who values their postdocs and is working with them to get them to achieve their goals. We need more of those. PETER: Yes, please. OLAYA: And like, she doesn't want everyone in her lab to be in academia, even that was her lifetime goal. Since she was five. PETER: I don't understand it. OLAYA: That is... \ PETER: That does not make sense to me. \ OLAYA: But I really appreciate that she's doing the work to be able to help people who don't want a career like hers. So yay PETER: Yes. YAY To her. She is a true rockstar and a rockstar who loves pizza as you heard in this conversation, which just adds to all of the gold stars to her dance card. Olaya, what's your favorite kind of pizza? OLAYA: One with lots of cheese. PETER: Understandable. Yep. OLAYA: Yeah. I mean, during the lockdown, my partner and I enjoyed one from a place called Vita café on Broadway, on 97th street here in New York. And it had cheese inside the crust. And then like, it was super thick and had tons of artichokes and spinach and lovely marinara. It like, I´m drooling. PETER: \ OLAYA: What about you, Peter? PETER: That the does sound delicious. I think mine is also in New York City. It would be Koronet pizza, which I don't actually know if they're still around cuz it's been like.. OLAYA: They're still around. They're also up here in Washington Heights. PETER: Yes. That makes me so happy. So this is a place that sells one size of pizza. It's like two feet across and you buy it by the slice and... OLAYA: Is it a slice or is it a blanket? PETER: It's mostly like a face mask really. Because it's bigger than anyone's face and it is delightful, especially after having a night out at a bar. Can't go wrong, honestly. OLAYA: And you also can't go wrong by sending us your comments and takes, experiences, questions, your favorite pizza, give us more recommendations. [PETER: Mmmm] So email us at [phindinganswers@gmail.com](mailto:phindinganswers@gmail.com). That's with a P-H-I-N-D-I-N-G. And we will include them in our final episode when we look back on all our conversations. Also remember to follow us on Twitter [@phindinganswers](https://twitter.com/phindinganswers), and we will try to keep the conversation going there too. You can get our episodes from our website [phindinganswers.github.io](https://phindinganswers.github.io). Find the link on Twitter. Remember everything is spelled with P-H-I-N-D. And you can also find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we'll be back next week with another awesome guest. PETER: Goodbye. OLAYA: See ya! [*MUSIC: Eggy Toast - Lose your head*]